Chazza Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 You can empty the lifters by pressing down on the centre bit; needs a mechanical press of some sort. Did you run the lifters in at 2200rpm for at least 20 minutes with no idling? If not the lobes will be buggered – been there, done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted May 18, 2021 Author Share Posted May 18, 2021 9 hours ago, Chazza said: You can empty the lifters by pressing down on the centre bit; needs a mechanical press of some sort. Did you run the lifters in at 2200rpm for at least 20 minutes with no idling? If not the lobes will be buggered – been there, done that. It has been run above that whenever I can, but it's had multiple starts where it would have been initially below that or cut out due to being cold/bad map etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 1 hour ago, ThreePointFive said: It has been run above that whenever I can, but it's had multiple starts where it would have been initially below that or cut out due to being cold/bad map etc. When I built the 109 I couldn't do the "immediately run it at 2k" thing as I needed to get the trigger wheel dialled in quickly, I just slathered assembly lube all over the cam and did my best and it seems to have been fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve200TDi Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 It maybe worth while measuring the valve clearance 'as is' before you take it apart just to see if you can sport anything? And do you have the build sheet from when you set the clearance/preload, i.e. you scriblings! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted May 18, 2021 Author Share Posted May 18, 2021 5 hours ago, steve200TDi said: It maybe worth while measuring the valve clearance 'as is' before you take it apart just to see if you can sport anything? And do you have the build sheet from when you set the clearance/preload, i.e. you scriblings! Steve I'm going to give it a go as I have nothing to lose by knowing my current settings, I can always use a vice to press out the oil. 6 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: When I built the 109 I couldn't do the "immediately run it at 2k" thing as I needed to get the trigger wheel dialled in quickly, I just slathered assembly lube all over the cam and did my best and it seems to have been fine. Running in the cam while trying to still sort out my MS was the biggest mistake of this build. I might as well have kept going with the old engine to get it running right and then rebuilt it knowing the map was good. Changing two completely separate variables at the same time is not good science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 48 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said: Running in the cam while trying to still sort out my MS was the biggest mistake of this build. I had to do the same on my first build.... half way through the 20ish minutes the fabricobbled heater hose gave way spraying the engine (and coil packs) with water -I had to shut if off and go again later. And yes, even with the heater hose dowsing the thing with boiling water it still kept running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted May 18, 2021 Author Share Posted May 18, 2021 The biggest cause of wear has to be the 20-ish start/stop/start/stop and the low RPMs while trying to get it running up at 3,000 from cold and then stopping the exhausts from melting. I've poked around with the poking sticks and I can't get the 20 thou poking stick under any tappet clip. I might be thinking this through wrongly, but surely the minimum preload should always be present, full or empty of oil, no matter where the cam is in its cycle - otherwise what is the point of the preload? I know the answer to this will be "the correct preload" but is it better to have too much or too little preload? I can add the smallest of the shims to the existing medium ones to put it in some middle setting but I won't know exact numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 Point of checking for clearance is zto see if the cam is entirely wasted, even on the base, but clearly you don't have that issue, so all good You can check the preload as well, piece of bent wire snipped off works OK. So, nothing terrible yet? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted May 18, 2021 Author Share Posted May 18, 2021 Oh I see - clearance would mean the cam had lost height... I understand that. Does that lack of clearance cause a problem to be addressed and need shimming, though? I've pulled out the lifters on one side and aside from circular swirl marks they're not scratched as such. Rocker disassembled and cleaned out, some very small swarf was in the rocker shaft itself but no visible issues. The 'tower' parts of the assembly are very tight on the shaft, I think when knocking them into position they might have caught on the bolt holes and shaved particles off. It's a theory, anyway. While everything is out I also want to check if the valves are opening and closing the correct amount, I have a DTI I can use. Is there an easy way to work it out based on the cam spec? I can probably google this. Sorry for all the questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 Lack of clearance is ideal, you have hydraulic lifters that take up the slack, and more than that, it is what the preloaded is for lifters sound good, swirls are there by design, if any are dished they are wiped, but sound good so far rocker towers are normally heated before sliding onto the shift, makes it much easier Lift is on the cam spec test it at the pushrod and compare, or on the valve and allow for the rocker ratio, which is 1.6. So if the cam lift is .400 the valve will move .640... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted May 21, 2021 Author Share Posted May 21, 2021 Well, I've put it all back together. I can't say I've found anything obvious. The lifters all lift, the cam isn't flat, all the valves open and close the same amount and there's no obvious wear anywhere. I've borescoped the cylinders and can't see anything bad happening in there, but I haven't taken the sump off. I reconsidered taking off the timing cover an have just made sure the seal looks ok and isn't caught up, it's an annoying job and I did it some time in November and didn't run it since so I don't see what I would tell from it without also taking off the bottom end shells, which I'm not going to. I have taken the opportunity to look at the injectors, I have replaced four from cylinders that were getting red and replaced all of the seals and the filters of the remaining ones. I did finally take out the LPG fittings that were tapped into the manifold just before the injectors. If nothing else they looked terrible but were wound in to different depths so were more obstructive in some chambers than others. My main reason was that I have no way to know how properly they were sealed or if the LPG system is why it ended up out of the vehicle in the first place. I've replaced them with some loctited M8 x 10mm bolts that sit perfectly. Before photo: There is no "after" photo. I'm a bit dubious that nothing has really changed, so expecting a different result is pointless but I have nothing I can confidently point to as the problem. I did paint the fuel rail as it was rusty, so if that doesn't make a difference I don't know what will...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I'd certainly feel better with those LPG connectors properly blanked. All I can say is good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 The gift that keeps on giving has yet again delivered maximum productivity for minimum reason. I noticed when I did the front crank oil seal that I could smell petrol, and out of nowhere the low fuel light came on a few days ago but I haven't even run it since May. I also noticed that it appeared the engine was making oil, according to the dipstick. I dropped the oil yesterday and it stinks like petrol, I am pretty sure I could light it if I wanted. So I have two problems. Firstly, I have to put the ignition onto pos II quite regularly to test out electrics and stuff, so I think the injectors are priming a lot and causing petrol to sit in the cylinders. Secondly, the piston rings are allowing that petrol to leak down... can't be a good sign. I want to take the fuel rail off, put it on a sheet of carboard in a suitable container and see how much it is priming and if I have a leaking injector. As I changed the seals and bought some refurbed injectors it's quite possible one is bad. Shame I don't have any petrol-proof containers of a suitable size. I can't see how to resolve the rings issue without a full tear down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 Turn off priming pulse and you won't get any "bonus" fuel - it should only be very brief anyway. I had several leaking injectors when I first built the 109, seems they don't like sitting around especially if they're "dry". Trouble is the Rover will start & run under very bad conditions so can easily mask faults like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 Sounds like leaking injector, the prime pulse is tiny by all standards. Rings will leak down petrol quite happily, nothing to worry about there. I assume you will be changing the oil out before running again 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted July 16, 2021 Author Share Posted July 16, 2021 2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: Turn off priming pulse and you won't get any "bonus" fuel - it should only be very brief anyway. I had several leaking injectors when I first built the 109, seems they don't like sitting around especially if they're "dry". Trouble is the Rover will start & run under very bad conditions so can easily mask faults like that. That's really useful, thanks. I'll also unplug the fuel pump so it stops pressurising the rail while I'm at it. What did you do to address a leaking injector? I have to suspect my new ones are to blame. 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: Sounds like leaking injector, the prime pulse is tiny by all standards. Rings will leak down petrol quite happily, nothing to worry about there. I assume you will be changing the oil out before running again Good news about the rings then, I'm just always assuming worst case at the moment. If the petrol to oil ratio was any higher I'd be putting it in the tank, so safe to say it will be disposed of. Shame as it's only been in a few months and had about about 2 minutes of actual running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 23 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said: Shame as it's only been in a few months and had about about 2 minutes of actual running. Call it running in oil, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chazza Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 Send all of your injectors to a specialist. They can clean them; check the spray pattern; check the flow-rate against each other and recommend what to do if they are beyond repairing. This is not an expensive job and eliminates pointless trial and error at home, Cheers Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 17, 2021 Share Posted July 17, 2021 19 hours ago, ThreePointFive said: That's really useful, thanks. I'll also unplug the fuel pump so it stops pressurising the rail while I'm at it. It won't prime the pump if there's no priming pulse, fixed that for ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 57 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said: It won't prime the pump if there's no priming pulse, fixed that for ya Too much science for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 10 hours ago, Chazza said: Send all of your injectors to a specialist. They can clean them; check the spray pattern; check the flow-rate against each other and recommend what to do if they are beyond repairing. This is not an expensive job and eliminates pointless trial and error at home, Cheers Charlie Sounds reasonable, at this point I am definitely done with 'pointless trial and error at home'. And to think, my plan was to get it to an MOT-able state by the end of this week. Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreePointFive Posted July 17, 2021 Author Share Posted July 17, 2021 20 hours ago, Bowie69 said: Call it running in oil, then. I was calling it that because that's what it was! This is my third order of the stuff now, Turners must think I'm running in 6 engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh501 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 I dont think you mentioned this earlier, but what is your MAP KPA showing when its idling? post a pic of tuner studio gauges. need revs, MAP, TPS, coolant temp, AF ratio, EGO enrich. Also screenshot your VE table & EGO control. 100 is atmospheric, i.e. throttle wide open, idling with closed throttle (and PWM and/or TB air bypass letting it idle) should be around 30-40. If its more like 80+ you have an air leak. Run your hand around plenum and can feel it. MS works on MAP KPA and revs. If KPA is high the quantity of fuel is increased. Lumpy running, black smoke, smoking hot manifolds/cats, black plugs and poor running, fuel in oil etc etc all symptons...... Ask me how i know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh501 Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 Also on fuel pressure. do you have a gauge on your regulator? handy to see visually the pressure on the return. Also tells you when its out of petrol lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 20, 2021 Share Posted July 20, 2021 3 hours ago, mikeh501 said: Also on fuel pressure. do you have a gauge on your regulator? handy to see visually the pressure on the return. Also tells you when its out of petrol lol I find a £1 see-thru filter on the return line (which should be near zero pressure) does a similar job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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