All Spark and No Bark

[ThreePointFive]

No worries, thanks for even looking Stephen!

[FridgeFreezer]

Can't remember what I used, possibly a handy ratchet extension or socket that had the right sort of outer diameter, but I've done clutches / engine swaps a few times now and never had an alignment tool.

Mind you, TSD 3D printed one which apparently worked surprisingly well.

[Ed Poore]

I've used a spark plug socket with some electrical tape to "calibrate" it to the right diameter before. Done it by eye and also turned one down out of a scrap of steel.

Friend of mine if he has a knackered gearbox cuts the input shaft off with a grinder to turn into an alignment tool. 

[missingsid]

First time you press the clutch it will align so it is only to ease the install as far as I can see?

[Bowie69]

It's to make the pilot bearing in the crank/flywheel concentric to the splines in the clutch plate. If they aren't, then it *can* cause trickiness getting them together.

[ThreePointFive]

Getting there... Heads are on.

It's going very quickly and there are so many ways to get it wrong. I don't think I'm missing anything, but the manual jumps around so difficult to be certain at times.

Couple of oddities I need to run by the group....

1. Timing: the gears are very slightly misaligned. I took a photo but it doesn't show it - seems to be about 1/2 a tooth out^{_{iust like Mark Evans said it would be in a 4x4 is born.}}. It's the best I can do so can't fix it.

 

The timing gear I bought from Turner's was used, which I didn't expect. It doesn't give me as good end float as my old one, but the teeth have no visible chain marks while mine does have very slight ones. I've chosen proper end float over tooth wear and have fitted a new chain and crank gear.

2. Timing cover: I didn't notice before, but both my old cover and the replacement are a different shape than the mating surfaces. They still work of course, just seems a bit sketchy.

3. Lifters: The instructions for the shim kit state the lifters should be done dry, but the manual states they should be submerged in oil and pumped a few times. Is it a case of doing the shims 'dry', then taking everything apart to get the lifters out and then fitting them 'wet' before running? I prefer the idea of not having clacky lifters as I will be nervous enough about every noise as it is on first start.

If the answer to this is to submerge them after shimming, how does the assembly lube work into the plan?

 

One last thing to note, the manual says about ridges on the bearing end caps that face forward or aft depending on the piston being left or right. The manual shows a cap with a clear moulding that points in one direction, whereas mine have the moulding on the side, so also left/right as much as front/rear. I'll try to take a photo if no one knows what I'm on about. I assume 'more towards the rear' is the same as 'rear' for this purpose...

After the build is complete I'm going to merge this engine discussion to my build thread as I don't think this is MS-specific, uness anyone objects.

 

 

 

 

[FridgeFreezer]

I think the timing cover discrepancy is Disco 2 Vs P38 or somesuch but I'm no expert.

[elbekko]

12 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

One last thing to note, the manual says about ridges on the bearing end caps that face forward or aft depending on the piston being left or right. The manual shows a cap with a clear moulding that points in one direction, whereas mine have the moulding on the side, so also left/right as much as front/rear. I'll try to take a photo if no one knows what I'm on about. I assume 'more towards the rear' is the same as 'rear' for this purpose...

The arrow is on the piston, the dot is on the conrod. On one bank they point the same way, on the other bank away from each other. When putting into the block, only the arrow on the piston matters.

 

[ThreePointFive]

Ah no, these are the caps. The piston arrows all point the front and the conrod domes pointing the right ways.

The caps and the ridges are here, sorry about the carp photo.

Manual vs reality:

I'm fairly confident I have it right, the bearing edges on the caps and rods with the tabs (?) meet, and the hole on the other side meet.

Sump is back on, it just needs the flywheel and clutch putting back on now and it'll be back in the car. The only snag now everything is together is just how hard it is to turn over with the spark plugs in. I've done the preload on the lifters and all seems to be working, but it's building a lot of pressure and is audibly hissing (which I understand is normal).

I googled it and found a surprisingly faimilar name..... https://socforum.com/forum/forum/stag-owners-club/soc-forum/24993-rover-v8-question

I can turn it over with a standard ratchet, it just takes a bit of grunt.

[elbekko]

Aha. It's easier to see on the inside of the cap, the bearing locating notches in the cap and conrod should be on the same side.

I had the same with being really, really hard to turn over. Worried me a lot at first, but no issues now after 6000km

[ThreePointFive]

Rear main seal is on (what a buggerthat was), flywheel is on, clutch is on, engine is on the chassis.

 

However, it has now developed a high pitched squeal when turned over by hand. It sounds like cylinder 1 or its neighbour. I haven't filled it with oil, so it's only got what I assembled it with - that was one of my next jobs now it's in.

Is there any good reason why I would have a screeching noise like metal on metal from a newly rebuilt engine or is it obviously as bad as it sounds?

If I need to take the engine out again I am going to have to think seriously about carrying on with this project.

[elbekko]

Err, that sounds very strange, yes. Mine didn't make any noise at all...

[ThreePointFive]

I was being stupid even for me. The pin on the crank sensor was contacting the flywheel.  Nowhere near "cylinder number 1 or its neighbour". It's been a long, tiring day.

[Chazza]

Good progress 🙂

Regarding lifters  – camshaft makers recommend running them and the cam-lobes in, at 2200rpm for 20 minutes. I did mine at 2500rpm for 30 minutes. DO NOT let the engine idle. It is OK to turn the engine off to check for leaks etc. but don't crank it for long, you need an instant start. I tested mine dry and started it with them dry, as recommended by Crow Cams (I think); the same procedure is recommended in the P6 3500 manual. This is because the greatest pressure on the cam-lobe is at slow revolution and hence the biggest risk for scuffing of the surfaces. Don't forget even during assembly, most of the pre-lube gets wiped off as you turn the crankshaft. Use running-in oil, so that the camshaft and lifters get well-splashed.

 

I made a pressurised container for squirting oil into the oil gallery, so that the lubrication was primed before trying to crank it. On my Disco 1, I also removed the oil hose to the heat exchanger in the radiator and poured oil into the hose to make sure that the pump and filter were full. It is the only time that the oil-light didn't stay on for a few seconds after starting.

 

Make sure you have heaps of oil in the cylinders, to help the rings slide.

Timing gears – there may be nothing wrong with the timing marks, however, the only way to be 100% sure is to check them with a degree-wheel and a piston stop. I bought an adjustable sprocket from RPI so that I could get the timing spot on i.e. the camshaft can be timed exactly to the crankshaft. Apparently sometimes the manufacturers make errors and timing gears are not always what they should be. Have a look on Youtube to see movies about using an engine stop; much easier to do before the engine goes into the car.

 

Don't rush things now, you need the engine to be a success,

 

Cheers Charlie

PS I have just found a Word doc I wrote about using and engine-stop and checking camshaft timing, with photos. If anyone would like a copy, feel free to PM me with your email address.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Chazza

[ThreePointFive]

Chazza, excellent advice as always. Engine is now in and fully plumbed up so afraid I'd already rushed somewhat. I was ready for start-up tomorrow but realised I need running in oil and not going to risk it without.

That's a couple of days lost but better that than the cam gone.

[ThreePointFive]

Mixed day. Got the engine started after a lot of little things that went wrong in succession (oil cooler fittings deciding to die, etc).

I wanted to run in 3x 10 minute sessions as it is very loud and antisocial, I'm doing it in my garage and I don't really want to attract attention. However, after one failed start/stall, an oil leak (oil cooler fittings...again) and some smoke, I've stop/started about five times for maybe 5 minutes' running, not happy at that.

I am getting a red flash on the rear bank O2 voltage, it's only momentarily flicking a red dial up and then going straight off but it seems to tie in with a bit of an occasional stutter/misfire though that makes it sound far worse than it actually is. What does that signify?

I intend to run 10 minutes tomorrow and then give it a rest, I know this can't be ideal. On the plus side, I'm not hearing any worrying screeching/knocking/etc to my untrained ears.

[Bowie69]

Don't worry about the lambda for the moment, get your cam run in properly.

And hey, go easy on yourself, you got it running, a big moment!

[elbekko]

Sounds like a pretty good result!

As said, don't worry about it too much. We ran in the cam on a friend's 4.6 with the timing out 50 degrees-ish...

Could be as simple as a bad connection on an injector, or a plug wire not fully seated.

[Chazza]

Well done; at least it runs and the 10 minute, or 5 minute sessions, are quite OK,

 

Cheers Charlie

[ThreePointFive]

Running for a few more minutes, I now have red hot glowing exhaust manifolds. I shut it off as soon as I saw it and then ran once more with some advance on the spark, same again.

Too lean or timing itself wrong?

I have been running the old map pre-new camshaft as discussing it with Keely, it was better to change less factors at once and we knew it ran. Seems like I need to change that immediately.

Unless anyone has any other ideas.

[Bowie69]

Possibly too much fuel as well.

Not running cats, I assume?

[ThreePointFive]

No cats, it never had them and now on a full SS system.

[ThreePointFive]

Looking at Keely's map, mine is leaner across the board. I don't want to keep running it if I'm doing damage but if I don't run it, I'll never get there.

There's some error when I try to just load his tune (it seems to think he's on MS2 and won't load the values over) so I'll have to manually copy them now.

 

 

 

 

[FridgeFreezer]

Remember the map value is multiplied by REQ_FUEL so you can just bump that up by a liberal amount (EG 20%) if you're sure it's too lean across the board - for running at moderate RPM with zero actual load to run the cam in you're not in too much danger of damaging anything. If +20% is eye-wateringly rich then bump it back down 5-10% - believe your nose over the O2 sensor readings especially if there's a bit of doubt on the signal, O2 sensors can get thrown off by oil/fuel/heat/impact.

[ThreePointFive]

I altered the required fuel setting here from 15.4 to 20, didn't seem to effect anything. Still ended up with red manifolds after a minute.

When I change this, nothing seems to alter on the fuel table - it shows the same values as before.

I'm going into the tables to enter the values manually as per screenshots Keely sent, but it looks like even his TS is different, I have less granularity in the rev range - mine is 1500/2000/2500 where his is 1600/2000/2300/2700 so I can't set as precise values.

Also, this is the error when I try to load his .msq file:

 

I'm assuming that's because I'm not running MS2....