Best company for head port and polish

[jamman109]

Hi,

I recently purchased an original 2.25 petrol for my 1966 series rebuild. I want to get the head sent away to be ported and polished and was looking for advice on where is best to send and prices to expect ect. I rung up Turner Engineeing as my father sent his there years ago but their price of £545 +VAT was more than i would like to spend, can anyone recommend some cheaper alternatives?

[Landrover17H]

I'm afraid you'll get what you pay for;

ACR, or more correctly Roland Marlow from ACR, wrote the book on getting grunt out of this engine. Turner's do a copy - if you're going to do it, Roland is your man. Eternal rivals, back in the day they were 'At the other' on the forums. Turner's slated Roland for his efforts, yet went on to produce their own. This kinda makes me chuckle, and wonder what we're be getting? Brilliance I'd imagine -  first, say to all  'Not to fit such things', then ask [£545 +VAT is it?] for one.

I'm afraid, the proper job by ACR is dearer still - by near £200.

https://www.automotivecomp.com/services/land-rover-products-and-services/

Yes, you can go cheap,  any local-boy with a die-grinder could port it? Will he know what to remove, and what to leave? Will it be proven, and what will you be paying for anyway?  Will it have been near a flow-bench, or dyno? To produce one of these heads has to be a good day or two's work for the skilled, and brains costs money. And it still won't match, a pre-set CNC job done in an hour, that's 'right'.

If it's cheap you want, get the die-grinder out and bash away yourself? Doubt your first guess will be worse than anyone else's? Then skim it.

Here's pic of mine, Roland's CR9:1 Big valve. Had ACR parts for nearer 20 years, and I have to say, been worth every penny. More grunt, lower down.

Good luck.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Maverik]

15 hours ago, jamman109 said:

Hi,

I recently purchased an original 2.25 petrol for my 1966 series rebuild. I want to get the head sent away to be ported and polished and was looking for advice on where is best to send and prices to expect ect. I rung up Turner Engineeing as my father sent his there years ago but their price of £545 +VAT was more than i would like to spend, can anyone recommend some cheaper alternatives?

Cake and eat it🤭

[Landrover17H]

Quote

Cake and eat it🤭

Agreed, anyone who knows what they're doing, has a business to run, premises, plant, staff, accountants blah, and a reputation to maintain. If we want him to come recommended, he's skilled. How much do I expect a skilled (and recommended) bloke to earn here? If he's  good, and after factoring the other stuff, he can't be cheap. How much will they pocket from doing one of these? I would wager, it's a lot less than we think.
 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Landrover17H

[FridgeFreezer]

If you want a cheaper way to get HP drop a V8 in. You'll get better MPG too.

Porting a head is skilled work, as the others say, £500 is a cheap head never mind for a ported one.

[Bowie69]

£700 ish is about right for any 8 valve head to be honest.

[Landrover17H]

And the quick fix? This won't set the world alight, yet bang-for-buck, at £50 including the gasket-set,  do a skim.  To be honest, I've spent a fortune on mine in various ways, and it's truly brilliant. Save for a six-pot, I've owned every other conversion, at the outset, they all look like a good idea, but few endear.  A breathed-on 17H keeps the 'Series feel', and with daily driveability tops them all. Nonetheless, clearly it's cheap you're after, and yours is the priciest route of all. As FF intimates, for you, the four-pot 2.25 petrol is the wrong place to start.

Be minded though, even engine-swaps, all-in, don't come as cheap as you think. It's not really 'right' which is why every other Joe pulls them out again, but if it's a toy you're after, throw one in. Go with FF,'s words... a V8 it is. They give 'em away.

For you, it's 1995 all over again. How many did you want?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Gazzar]

1995. I should have bought as many 101s as I could store....

Hind sight, and cash.

[Nonimouse]

Roland's stuff is good, but not rocket science; and the waiting times are ridiculous.

Basically you are matching the ports to the manifolds - but adding a swirl pattern to the inlet and polishing the outlet. A nice 10 thou skim never hurt a 2.25

I'd use local folk that understand the engine

PPS in Pembroke used to have a clue

Nutts in Narbarth was another

JFI in Brecon

There's a chap in Llandindrod....

I could name you ten down here, but there's one everyone knows is the best. Ask the Classic car garages or clubs

[Landrover17H]

Nah, you heard the man... the V8 is the one. Jeez, there's no end... have a look, I should. Listed in eBay's home furniture section, we've wine-racks. coffee-tables, and V8 toasters. Come on, who's ready to do that with a 2 1/4  diesel?

Edited June 24, 2020 by Landrover17H

[jason110]

10 hours ago, Landrover17H said:

Nah, you heard the man... the V8 is the one. Jeez, there's no end... have a look, I should. Listed in eBay's home furniture section, we've wine-racks. coffee-tables, and V8 toasters. Come on, who's ready to do that with a 2 1/4  diesel?

2 1/4 diesel? It’s a 2 1/4 petrol engine we want looking over. My father had his 2 1/4 petrol port and polished 15 odd years ago by Turners and it’s been brilliant.  Keep the sarcasm to yourself. We were merely looking for best value for money.
 

thanks for response from the sensible members of the group.

 

[Landrover17H]

Knew it was there somewhere, for those that have not seen this, here's one of the better threads - there’s even a ding-dong thrown in.

http:// https://vidinur.net/2013/05/12/everything-about-tuning-the-2-25-petrol-engine-acr-turner-others-perspective/

Essentially, the Turner-line is, it’ll shorten life, leave a trail of bits, etc. Don't do this.
The ACR 'take' goes - these engines were designed to be diesels first,  petrol second, therefore have reserves.

And others  think this attempts to make a hot-hatch.

As said, it’s not rocket-science, it’s a heap of heads, and messing with a flow-bench to see what works. R&D is time and money. ACR have done the most.

In my experience, there’s colossal gains to be had in plain-simple driveability, ideal for a ‘daily’.  In practice; peak power moves up a bit, yet in this, there’s more at the bottom. I don’t drive at peak too much. As for the “trail of bits, it’ll all go bang” er... thing? I'm sure Turners are correct. If we try, all engines are guaranteed to break. Most choose not to drive that way.  ACR make some pretty grandiose claims, yet they’re borne out. Mine shows a V8 a pace - I don’t want to go faster than that.
Entry cost is £5-600ish, but you won't get V8 pace at entry, which is why FF is right. I shudder to think what Gazzer is ‘in for’ on  his? Reckon he'll be lucky to get away with 6-7 times that.

And it's true. No one ‘needs’ any of it.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Nonimouse]

You can get 80mph out of a 2.25 Diesel - although it smokes a bit; and that's just with pump 'tuning'

 

[Landrover17H]

I've often wondered who bought the speedo from my mate's 'fizzy'.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Gazzar]

On 6/25/2020 at 11:41 AM, Nonimouse said:

You can get 80mph out of a 2.25 Diesel - although it smokes a bit; and that's just with pump 'tuning'

 

I am really struggling to believe you. Not having a go, just trying to reconcile my experiences with a 2286 diesel with yours.

I'm trying to think of what speed the engine would be turning at to achieve this, but failing.

[Nonimouse]

Back in the day, a friend and myself used to buy ex BT series land rovers at auction, do them up and sell them. My friend - Martin Lewis of Lewis Land Rovers had one of these ex BT 88 Vans as a run around. He'd clocked the pump as far as it would still run, then improved the injectors (not sure how). This thing flew. I was running a V8 hybrid at the time, with 35/12.5x15 tyres and 4.7 diffs. He could leave me on the hills - not quickly - but steadily. I was running a standard 3.5Efi. Used to smoke like a smokey thing. So we did speed test on it with my works racing Xantia (with a very accurate speedo). A midges chuff over 80mph flat out on the newly built M49 - using all the lanes and overdrive. It was a tadge thirsty...

Always made me laugh. When you work out the maths for the resistance at that speed, it's quite an achievement

Gazzar - you could use the Ashcroft calculator - I did and it's 3650rpm

On the subject of ACR and Roland. In the olden times, back in the 80's there was a chap up near Robin Hoods Bay, in North Yorkshire, who built a few 2.25 comp safari engines. He was an old school tuning chap. So did all the things that were worked out years ago. Lighten the flywheel, skimmed, ported, balanced and polished, along with chaining the cam profile. These engines would get almost double the power, but only run on 4*. Scarey thing is they were reliable. I bought one of his road engines, for my S3 88 tow barge. I rue the day I sold that vehicle. But essentially that is all that Roland has had to do. Copy what was already done. Miles's at Tipton St John had a tuning package for the 2.25 that increased power and improved fuel economy, so did Hamlins

All Roland did was to put together a nice package of bits that was everything you needed

Edited June 26, 2020 by Nonimouse

[jamman109]

I appreciate some of these replies and the helpful advice and I have indeed had my question answered. Forums are here for those who have the knowledge to share and those without to gain, surely we can do without the sarcasm? I am a 22 year old student so don't have vast disposable income, maybe I could have worded my initial question slightly better to ask if the Turner price was fair and the expected for a job of this type. I index linked what my father paid Turner 15 years ago and its a similar sum to what is quoted today, so come monday I will be packaging the head for shipping to Turner Engineering.

[steve b]

Turners will be fine and very quick too . Fitting a decent SU carb will add to the already great torque and smoothness of the 2 1/4 petrol and would be a period correct mod too .

I think some pictures of this 2A would be appropriate now  , after all it is a real Land Rover

 

This is part of my current Land Rover project for a client , 1968 2A 88 ex MOD . The engine has a Turner unleaded head rebuild and + 0.060" bore , -0.010" crank mains and big ends

cheers

Steve b

[Gazzar]

6 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Back in the day, a friend and myself used to buy ex BT series land rovers at auction, do them up and sell them. My friend - Martin Lewis of Lewis Land Rovers had one of these ex BT 88 Vans as a run around. He'd clocked the pump as far as it would still run, then improved the injectors (not sure how). This thing flew. I was running a V8 hybrid at the time, with 35/12.5x15 tyres and 4.7 diffs. He could leave me on the hills - not quickly - but steadily. I was running a standard 3.5Efi. Used to smoke like a smokey thing. So we did speed test on it with my works racing Xantia (with a very accurate speedo). A midges chuff over 80mph flat out on the newly built M49 - using all the lanes and overdrive. It was a tadge thirsty...

Always made me laugh. When you work out the maths for the resistance at that speed, it's quite an achievement

Gazzar - you could use the Ashcroft calculator - I did and it's 3650rpm

On the subject of ACR and Roland. In the olden times, back in the 80's there was a chap up near Robin Hoods Bay, in North Yorkshire, who built a few 2.25 comp safari engines. He was an old school tuning chap. So did all the things that were worked out years ago. Lighten the flywheel, skimmed, ported, balanced and polished, along with chaining the cam profile. These engines would get almost double the power, but only run on 4*. Scarey thing is they were reliable. I bought one of his road engines, for my S3 88 tow barge. I rue the day I sold that vehicle. But essentially that is all that Roland has had to do. Copy what was already done. Miles's at Tipton St John had a tuning package for the 2.25 that increased power and improved fuel economy, so did Hamlins

All Roland did was to put together a nice package of bits that was everything you needed

I'm impressed! Not keen on smoky diesels, but it shows what BL could have done with the engines, but didn't. If only....

 

[Landrover17H]

As said, for me and most here, ACR would be choice. It's what Turner's decry, and ACR do. ACR are the same price for the same head, though ACR get dearer for the 'upped' big-valver. This variant Truner's don't sell anyway. It's a Land rover thing, camps tend to divide along the same lines as their facial-hair, but whichever outfit you run with, some castings are better than others. If you're lucky someone's already plonked in a HRC1303,  it's King-of-the-hill - more material available and bigger margins. You'll find an SU helps lots; the better the head, the more your Solex/Zenith will strangle. Your Solex/Zenith  is likely tired anyway. A 2.5/200TDi cam would be good. The bill mounts very quickly; this is where FF's words ring true. This route is not the cheapest.

Here we are:

https://www.automotivecomp.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/2.25-Petrol-cylinder-head-identification-min.pdf

Edited June 27, 2020 by Landrover17H

[FridgeFreezer]

14 hours ago, Gazzar said:

I'm impressed! Not keen on smoky diesels, but it shows what BL could have done with the engines, but didn't. If only....

You can get big horsepower out of anything... for a short time.

LR lumps have always been de-tuned for long life and abuse, it's not a mistake or oversight. Also the screaming HP peak tends to hurt the useful low-down torque that actually makes the vehicle so much better for the regular user.

[Gazzar]

5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

You can get big horsepower out of anything... for a short time.

LR lumps have always been de-tuned for long life and abuse, it's not a mistake or oversight. Also the screaming HP peak tends to hurt the useful low-down torque that actually makes the vehicle so much better for the regular user.

I understand, but the TDI 200 shows that the block in use in the 60s was very capable of higher mileage in a much greater state of tune than the standard 2286 diesel. And I know that LR management were looking at it. The BL senior people scorched the plan.

[Gazzar]

Yes, with two extra main bearings. I know.

[Nonimouse]

On 6/27/2020 at 6:38 PM, Gazzar said:

I understand, but the TDI 200 shows that the block in use in the 60s was very capable of higher mileage in a much greater state of tune than the standard 2286 diesel. And I know that LR management were looking at it. The BL senior people scorched the plan.

Money, always money. And in this case politics and the ineptitude of the civil service and Land Rover's own top heavy management structure...

[Gazzar]

Mostly true, but a lot of it was a sincere belief that the Rover car side of the business was the place to focus on, and the investment in jet powered cars was the right thing to do. The dirty utility Landrover was not important, or even wanted.

And we all know how that worked out, don't we, Mr McGovern?