Jump to content
Blanco

Thinking of updating 4HP22,... options??

Recommended Posts

So my¬†P38 is SORN'ed at present and in between other jobs has had quite a bit of attention of late, albeit in bits and bobs, ... HVAC now works pretty well, Air suspension is working properlyūü§ě, driver's seat repaired...... apart from the headlining it is looking pretty good.

But I know from last year's tinkerings that the diesel lump is past it's prime and in the back of my mind I have been mulling over an update using the BMW M57B25 engine, in place of the existing M51;... lots of work has been done and shared on facebook and elsewhere about re-using these engines in Land Rovers of all sorts and most of the issues associated with the mechanical integration are well covered particularly for Defenders. Electronically things probably aren't so clearcut, ECU wise the engines run, usually with the anti-theft disconnected, but instruments and supplementary controls still require a bit of effort, and at present I wouldn't start on a swap because nowhere have I yet seen the cruise control issue overcome.

Most if not all of the driving P38's with a successful transplant have used a manual gearbox because it avoids the fact of the 4HP22 being over-torqued and gets around any issues of re-tuning the shift pattern to suit. Ashcroft can beef up a 4HP22 and that might be the sensible option but.....

The question I would like to investigate a bit further  is whether gearboxes from the L322 might provide an option? Particularly as the M57 in TD6 guise was common enough and the L322 mounted both 5HP (OK, so 5HP are reputedly made of cheese) and 6HP autos. The transfer box end of the equation seems hopeful,  I think it is a similar if not identical unit, but I can see on Google that the driveline configuration is a bit different.  The engine  side of things have two configurations in M57 guise early/smaller and later/larger bolt patterns. 

Sooo, ... does anyone have any L322 bits lying around and /or can help answer questions of compatibilty please??? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Err, I thought the P38 used the stronger HP24? 

Only the 4.6

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Blanco said:

So my¬†P38 is SORN'ed at present and in between other jobs has had quite a bit of attention of late, albeit in bits and bobs, ... HVAC now works pretty well, Air suspension is working properlyūü§ě, driver's seat repaired...... apart from the headlining it is looking pretty good.

But I know from last year's tinkerings that the diesel lump is past it's prime and in the back of my mind I have been mulling over an update using the BMW M57B25 engine, in place of the existing M51;... lots of work has been done and shared on facebook and elsewhere about re-using these engines in Land Rovers of all sorts and most of the issues associated with the mechanical integration are well covered particularly for Defenders. Electronically things probably aren't so clearcut, ECU wise the engines run, usually with the anti-theft disconnected, but instruments and supplementary controls still require a bit of effort, and at present I wouldn't start on a swap because nowhere have I yet seen the cruise control issue overcome.

Most if not all of the driving P38's with a successful transplant have used a manual gearbox because it avoids the fact of the 4HP22 being over-torqued and gets around any issues of re-tuning the shift pattern to suit. Ashcroft can beef up a 4HP22 and that might be the sensible option but.....

The question I would like to investigate a bit further  is whether gearboxes from the L322 might provide an option? Particularly as the M57 in TD6 guise was common enough and the L322 mounted both 5HP (OK, so 5HP are reputedly made of cheese) and 6HP autos. The transfer box end of the equation seems hopeful,  I think it is a similar if not identical unit, but I can see on Google that the driveline configuration is a bit different.  The engine  side of things have two configurations in M57 guise early/smaller and later/larger bolt patterns. 

Sooo, ... does anyone have any L322 bits lying around and /or can help answer questions of compatibilty please??? 

 

Did the 6 speed auto get used with the BMW engine? Thought it was only the 5 speed.

Anything is possible, but I'd have thought getting to all work with the rest of the systems is the difficult bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Did the 6 speed auto get used with the BMW engine? Thought it was only the 5 speed.

It seems you're right, I have been looking at ads and Goggling it, the 6HP seems to have come with Ford's TDV6/8, ... but Wikipedia holds out the tantalising possibility by suggesting the 6 speed came in 2005.

If the tail end was the same it might still be possible to juggle bell housings?,... I was hoping :ph34r:

26 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

getting to all work with the rest of the systems is the difficult bit

Yes I get that, but there seems to be a sufficiently motivated body of enthusiasts out there that are gradually nailing it down bit by bit, in time I think it will be possible, even if the original system proves tricky there are a couple of peeps on here who would suggest it could be adapted to Megashift.

Basically its because I don't have ready access to a machine shop anymore that aspect of the job is more painful (read expensive!), so I was just looking to see what the odds were and whether there is any potential in these other transmissions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The L322 diesel used the GM 5L40E, to put in a P38 you would need an adapter for the back end and a controller to run the autobox, lots of work for a pretty rubbish autobox, not worth it in my opinion 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, ashtrans said:

GM 5L40E ...... not worth it in my opinion 

Thanks, I get that, ... although i seem to have muddled manufacturers in my fact finding mission! ,... the 6HP was really what I had in mind when I started the thread, but only afterwards I realised it probably doesn't exist in TD6 land. 

I don't suppose the 6HP internals  would fit in the 4HP overcoat? :D

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, ashtrans said:

M57, 6HP26 and LT230

Thanks, .. I know but the P38 can't use the LT230, ... that was kind of why I started this little quest, ... just to see if options were out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another guy of facebook can sort you out regarding engine and gearbox, and probably cruise control as well, but its the P38 transfer box that will be more difficult, as not too many people want to do the conversion ......... pay for it, I mean ! Max Wiseman is the man, but they aint cheap !

Thing is with adaptors and plates is, by the time you have done all the research and bought all the stuff to do it, plus the time, its probably cheaper to buy a commercially made kit.

Easiest way would be to use a 4HP24, your existing bellhousing on an earlier engine, and get a speciality torque converter from the US of A. No one over here seems able or willing to modify a torque converter here, let alone guarantee it. Trust me I have tried.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it's of any interest I have a 4HP24 with transfer box (and controller as well I think) from a 4.6 sat not very far from a ferry terminal to Ireland... :ph34r:

DSC_0172.thumb.JPG.bd6626dc6db148b4dbc1edeb65ec9579.JPG

A friend was talking of doing the Atlantic Way at some point and I've never been to Ireland.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Ed Poore said:

f it's of any interest I have a 4HP24

Ed, While part of me loves the idea of innovative and creative solutions,...  I think the 4HP24 is probably a sensible option, .... do we know the history and mileage? We can switch to PM to avoid boring peeps

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/26/2020 at 12:47 AM, smallfry said:

get a speciality torque converter from the US of A.

Just on that one, I did see somewhere a reference to using¬† a 4.0 TC in the¬† 4HP24 for BMW diesel applications, how well it works I don't know, but worth a try in the first instance. Also it seems the market might be changing a bit, Sussex Auto's seem to offer something of a build service, and as I have family in OZ¬† I might check out a couple of builders there, they are quite used to 4WD conversions down there.ūüôÉ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2020 at 9:33 PM, Blanco said:

Thanks, .. I know but the P38 can't use the LT230, ... that was kind of why I started this little quest, ... just to see if options were out there.

Sorry I forgot you were wanting to put it in a P38,  I don’t know of any adapters to do this so it’s 4HP22/24 or make one I think

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2020 at 9:33 PM, Blanco said:

Thanks, .. I know but the P38 can't use the LT230, ... that was kind of why I started this little quest, ... just to see if options were out there.

Out of curiosity why the LT230?

Id be interested in an electronic box that used hand controls and could be coupled to a V8 but I’m not sure if that’s possible? Maybe in the post-Thor Landrovers?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Bigj66 said:

Out of curiosity why the LT230?

.... P38 is uniquely 'handed' compared to defenders and earlier Disco's & RR's; so the LT230 takes centre'ish input and drives forward and rearward on the right hand side. P38 takes the centre intput but the outputs are on the left of the vehicle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Blanco said:

.... P38 is uniquely 'handed' compared to defenders and earlier Disco's & RR's; so the LT230 takes centre'ish input and drives forward and rearward on the right hand side. P38 takes the centre intput but the outputs are on the left of the vehicle.

Gotcha ūüĎć

Presumably the BW transfer box has similar interface issues with the box as the 230.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a feeling I've seen somewhere an adapter for (I think) the 5HP to LT230.

With regards to the 6HP I think (online research only, never took one out when I had the TDV8) there is a subtle difference between the 6HP26 and the 6HP26X as fitted behind the 4.2 supercharged and 3.6 TDV8s. The X suffix was to denote external 4WD and as such the rear of the box is built in such a way that you can easily bolt on an external transfer box. Where I'm not sure if there's a difference is it looks like the X version has an internal rather than the more classical external spline on the output shaft. Basically meaning that the transfer box then provides the shaft bit to slot inside the gearbox.

It's I suppose a slightly nicer way around because it means you can have a thin adapter plate and a custom shaft that goes between, say, a 6HP26X and an LT230 without having to re-machine either the LT230 input gear or the gearbox output shaft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More work but the TDV8 setup (6HP26X and Magna Steyr DD295 transfer box) does have the front prop to the left hand side and the rear is more or less central. So at least the correct orientation for a P38. Here's a picture looking forwards towards the engine bay under a TDV8. Front prop you can see is to the left off the sump whilst the rear is just visible in the dark above the earth strap and above the insulation.

Remember this was fully independent suspension so the front and rear props don't really move with respect to the vehicle.

IMAG0180.thumb.jpg.6fd45d1d979bf03ccf273e1efb38fcd6.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:D Never had any luck with V8's of any description myself (P6 and 2 Range Rovers), and always had a soft spot for Rover 6's, hence my particular (peculiar) choice, ...... but a couple of people seem to be having a crack at TDV8 conversions,  could be interesting but I think in the realm of P38's it would just bring a different set of problems, easier and cheaper just to change up to the later model of RR?  On the donor front I think  E39 and E60's outnumber L322's by quite a bit and probably are a tad more affordable for hair-brained schemes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bigj66 said:

Out of curiosity why the LT230?

Id be interested in an electronic box that used hand controls and could be coupled to a V8 but I’m not sure if that’s possible? Maybe in the post-Thor Landrovers?

Not a problem at all. Just use a 4HP24, they are all electronic, or a 4HP22E. Couple it to a Compushift, which Ashcroft Transmissions sell, plus a suitable shifter, and you are done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Blanco said:

Never had any luck with V8's of any description myself

Opposite of me then. Drove a friend's P38 with the straight 6 diesel (manual) and didn't like it (didn't find it very torquey and had to rev the nuts off it to do anything). Don't like the Nissan straight 6 in the 6x6 either. That's hopefully being swapped out for a 6.2 (probably) or 6.5 (maybe) V8 diesel :ph34r:.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Blanco said:

Just on that one, I did see somewhere a reference to using¬† a 4.0 TC in the¬† 4HP24 for BMW diesel applications, how well it works I don't know, but worth a try in the first instance. Also it seems the market might be changing a bit, Sussex Auto's seem to offer something of a build service, and as I have family in OZ¬† I might check out a couple of builders there, they are quite used to 4WD conversions down there.ūüôÉ

Sussex Autos do nothing in the way of altering TCs, I spoke to them about it a couple of months ago, They will recondition them though. However, by the time you have paid forit, plus shipping and duty, you might as well buy an Ashcroft kit. 

4.0 TC will not fit inside the P38 bellhousing. Been there tried that. The later M57s have a slightly bigger bellhousing bolt pattern, so the vehicles that are fitted with the engine have bigger bellhousings to suit, but none of them will fit a 4HP22/24 as standard.

That leaves you with using a "Gems" 4HP24 and its large (best) TC for the job...... which is what Ed Poore has ........ and a Ashcroft Transmissions M57 adaptor kit .

ALL¬†ūüėĄ¬†you have to do then is engine mounts, exhaust, intercooler, wiring for the engine etc etc.

Plus a controller for the gearbox. Somebody on here (Bowie69 I think ?) said one could be made for little money, but as I have no idea when it comes to electronics, I wouldnt know how. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Torque is an issue, and one of the attractions of the M57 is a healthy improvement on that front, not in the same league as a TDV8 I know

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy