Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[steve b]

5 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

He's mostly positive about it, other than the ergonomics.

Sounds just like a real Defender then...

Does it leak when it rains? 

Steve

[landroversforever]

15 minutes ago, geoffbeaumont said:

He's mostly positive about it, other than the ergonomics.

17 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Despite having had a Jimny for ages and loving it to bits?

You will be surprised, I think, it's SUVs that he dislikes, like any human ought to really.

That's good to hear! Hopefully get to watch it properly at lunchtime . I always assumed the love of the jimny was it being a little bit more of a small fun jap thing rather than being a 4x4.

[Peaklander]

This from Andrew English in The Telegraph, it's behind their paywall and I won't copy all, but this is the headline and the verdict...

Ineos Grenadier review: a perfect reproduction of the old Land Rover Defender – warts and all.

This eagerly awaited utility 4x4 to follow in Land Rover’s tracks is a fine effort for a first car, but there are simply too many niggles

 

For a company that has never built a car before, it’s an impressive debut, and if the majority of your driving/work is demanding off-road stuff, then a Grenadier should cope fine. However, as Bill Brock, my first road test editor, used to growl: “You do the test on the day and you write about everything, because if they can’t get it right for you, then God help their customers.”

Not one of the Grenadiers failed to proceed, but if Land Rover, Jeep, Mercedes-Benz or Isuzu had presented a vehicle with this number of silly errors and faults we’d have their guts for garters. It’s almost as if despite the experience of the contributors to the project and the build team there’s been no hard-nosed and beady-eyed test department reporting straight to the board saying: “This simply won’t do.”

What the Grenadier does well it does really well, but you simply can’t sell a new car from a new company with this many niggles and design howlers to a discerning public, farmers, utility companies, experienced adventurers and off-roaders; they won’t come back and they’ll tell all their friends why.

Ineos has a great story and the Grenadier is a charismatic vehicle with a great heart and a single-minded purpose. But despite that and the hard work that’s gone into making it, as it stands now Sir Jim’s Awfully Big Adventure only just scrapes a three-star rating.

If they wanted to produce the old Defender, they’ve achieved it in every way, for better and for worse. 

[ThreePointFive]

58 minutes ago, steve b said:

Sounds just like a real Defender then...

Does it leak when it rains? 

Steve

Yeah, but it costs you twice as much for the pleasure and they'll market it as a feature (and people will believe them).

I cannot imagine trying to convince myself to tolerate the ergonomic issues in a brand new, clean-sheet design. 

The fact it's the RHD model that is worst effected says it all for me and speaks volumes about Radcliffe's approach. This was about getting a vehicle out and not wanting to lose face in front of Land Rover, not about making the best product possible. Pure billionaire ego at play.

That they couldn't be bothered (or just plain couldn't) engineer a solution to the exhaust manifold location doesn't bode well for the quality of engineering elsewhere.

I'm not even going to repeat the ridiculousness of those overhead switches and just how many Jonny had to press on his off-road sections. I'll take my one leaver, thanks.... Talk about a betrayal to the initial design brief, this thing's got more electronics and screens than a Currys.

Each to their own but this is such a compromised design. It is as Jonny says, a car motivated by spite.

 

[landroversforever]

32 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

The fact it's the RHD model that is worst effected says it all for me and speaks volumes about Radcliffe's approach. This was about getting a vehicle out and not wanting to lose face in front of Land Rover, not about making the best product possible. Pure billionaire ego at play.

That they couldn't be bothered (or just plain couldn't) engineer a solution to the exhaust manifold location doesn't bode well for the quality of engineering elsewhere.

It wouldn't surprise me that the exhaust is an item that forms part of the engine from BMW and therefore part of the emissions etc. I'd imagine it all has to stay as a complete package from them to avoid a world of pain with emissions regs etc. 

[FridgeFreezer]

37 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

It wouldn't surprise me that the exhaust is an item that forms part of the engine from BMW and therefore part of the emissions etc. I'd imagine it all has to stay as a complete package from them to avoid a world of pain with emissions regs etc.

I'm sure you're right - but BMW manage to fit it in a car and create sensible legroom, hell Land Rover stuck its very similar predecessor in the P38 and managed it...

[landroversforever]

Maybe it's the other way then.... they've had to add stuff to get it through current emissions (thanks to the brick-like shape over a BMW) and that doesn't fit. P38 is probably far enough back in time for the emissions/approvals etc to be a bit more lax than they are now. 

Either way, it does seem a little strange that they weren't able to do something better with it. 

 

[jeremy996]

The rest for the left foot, (in a RHD vehicle), is a complete red herring for me; I notice I am not as tall as the journalists making the most fuss, at 6', so I suspect that for much of the population, it will barely impact their lives. I think you need to try it before you buy/don't buy.

Most manufacturers will engineer for a 95th or 98th percentile individual and all vehicles will be a large number of compromises bolted together. 

Just in sports cars, you can see the influence of one compromise over another, TVRs usually can fit the big and tall, Peter Wheeler was a big bloke; Lotus tend to be a bit tight, especially in the Colin Chapman era.

[Anderzander]

2 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

Each to their own but this is such a compromised design. It is as Jonny says, a car motivated by spite.

Reading across your posts there seems to be a theme that you hate Jim Radcliffe and his car?  Is that right ? 

[ThreePointFive]

I have requested my posts are deleted if that's the interpretation.

I have simply tried to offer an objective view about this vehicle and the result that has been achieved.

[FridgeFreezer]

Autopian review here if it hasn't been posted already:

https://www.theautopian.com/the-ineos-grenadier-is-the-overlanding-beast-the-land-rover-defender-could-have-become/

In one shot the front cab really looks quite cramped by the massive centre console.

 

[Happyoldgit]

Still looks like a bit Santana like to me, it's a lot of money for a cover band effort. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Happyoldgit
Typo

[Anderzander]

50 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

I have requested my posts are deleted if that's the interpretation.

I have simply tried to offer an objective view about this vehicle and the result that has been achieved.

Woah - steady there !  Please don’t delete your posts. I just thought you must feel very strongly about it. I have no criticism of your posts at all.

There are people with very strong feelings about billionaires and land rovers too ! I just wondered if that was you.

I’m a bit more ambivalent towards the car - but would come across as more generous I think.

I won’t be buying one - I want to try and save for retirement instead.

I think he’s done quite well - it seems the main criticisms are leg room, wipers, and the steering  - which seems very little from a brand new vehicle from a brand new manufacturer? 

I think of plenty of cars that came new with more faults than that. 

There is a lot that he seems to have got right that I would expect to resonate with our shared interests on here: utility over fashion, emphasis on build quality and repairability and so on and so forth. 

[Anderzander]

I’ve been trying to find a picture of the exhaust - this is the best I’ve come across ..

 

Looks to be quite a lot of room there ? 

[FridgeFreezer]

44 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

I think he’s done quite well - it seems the main criticisms are leg room, wipers, and the steering  - which seems very little from a brand new vehicle from a brand new manufacturer? 

I think of plenty of cars that came new with more faults than that. 

I dunno, if it was the 1970's then a new car turning up with ill-functioning wipers, vague steering and inconvenient ergonomics might be nothing unusual but most manufacturers / OEMs nailed that stuff fairly well through the 80's and 90's to the point where it should not be something happening on a modern car, especially one that's had this amount of money spent on R&D etc. - if it was a Morgan or Caterham I could understand it more but this thing is supposed to be fairly mass-market.

[jeremy996]

21 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I dunno, if it was the 1970's then a new car turning up with ill-functioning wipers, vague steering and inconvenient ergonomics might be nothing unusual but most manufacturers / OEMs nailed that stuff fairly well through the 80's and 90's to the point where it should not be something happening on a modern car, especially one that's had this amount of money spent on R&D etc. - if it was a Morgan or Caterham I could understand it more but this thing is supposed to be fairly mass-market.

It was never expected to be mass market - they are only expecting a sustainable demand of between 25-35k per annum worldwide.

My issue is the criticisms are only going to be deal-breakers for a very few; the wipers have a reduced sweep, there are plenty of cars with the same or worse; it is acceptable but not optimal;  the steering is better than my LRs, it is probably better than a new P38, it's not as good as a new model Defender, but anything with a live front axle won't be; and the ergonomics are not optimal; almost every car I've owned or driven has something that winds me up!

Motoring journalists make a living by writing engaging stuff about vehicles- if there is not some grit, they get accused of being owned by the manufacturers. The taller ones see the footbox as an issue; the shorter ones complain about having to fall out of it, (Alex Goy, The Autopian), so it's an opinion, and like other things, everyone's got one. 

[jeremy996]

A Ineos YouTube to cover the basic operating procedure. It's dull, but what do you expect?

 

 

[Happyoldgit]

3 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

I have requested my posts are deleted if that's the interpretation.

I have simply tried to offer an objective view about this vehicle and the result that has been achieved.

 

Your opinions matter and you are entitled to hold them, whether others agree with them or not is totally irrelevant. TBH it's good and healthy to get a cross section of views.

[Bowie69]

2 hours ago, Anderzander said:

I’ve been trying to find a picture of the exhaust - this is the best I’ve come across ..

 

Looks to be quite a lot of room there ? 

That's a big old lump of stuff there, looks like the cat hanging off it? They've been moving them upstream for a while now, much more efficient where hotter and warm up faster.

It would explain the floor issue.

For those complaining about the two issues, wipers and footrest, I suppose not every car fits everyone... there are some that I get in and find my elbow banging into sharp bits, and others where the headrest is so far forward I have to sit with a stoop so it is not banging into the back of my head all the time.

These are probably pretty minor issues which are mirrored in different ways across the rest of the new car market, experienced differently by everyone.

I guess we won't know if it works until we all get a test drive.

[landroversforever]

1 minute ago, Bowie69 said:

These are probably pretty minor issues which are mirrored in different ways across the rest of the new car market, experienced differently by everyone.

Example I experienced (again) only recently with a 5dr Mini courtesy car whilst my 3dr was being serviced. Seat and wheel in my position meant it was a squeeze between the wheel and the B pillar on the 5dr. Mine is no issue as the door is longer. Someone shorter in the leg but longer in the arm wouldn't have the same issue. 

[Bowie69]

I speak from the position of the LGT which, ergonomically, is perfect, you understand.

[landroversforever]

25 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I speak from the position of the LGT which, ergonomically, is perfect, you understand.

I'm afraid before making such claims you have to surrender the keys and your credit card for extensive 3rd party testing. I'm happy make the sacrifice and put myself forward for this. 

[deep]

On 2/8/2023 at 10:46 PM, L19MUD said:

Just read through the Autocar review. I think it is going to be interesting how the sales play out over the next couple of years, everyone loves a shiny cool new thing as as they point out. I suspect there will be a lot of these that never go up any more than a raised kerb (no different to the new Defender I know) and when the excitement dies down I think most people are going to find some of the little missing luxuries very annoying compared to the 40k leased car they have on the driveway (say 3 Series BMW). Keyless start is something I wouldn't want to move away from if I had a choice. Powered seats are handy when more than one person drives the car for the memory function and auto lights is a pretty basic extra safety feature nowadays that can easily be over ridden if required. 

I completely appreciate that for the target market of old Defender owners that none of the above is relevant. I just question how many of those are actually going to be the people buying it from new

What that may mean however is for those that will be in the market for a second hand one once the leases run out in 3 years time the prices may have become in reach. Will be interesting to see what happens

 

 

I (and quite a few people I know) am sick to death of all the electronic junk and big brother stuff being endlessly chucked into modern vehicles.  If anything, the problem with the Grenadier is that it already has too much of it, not too little!  A strong appeal is that it doesn't have all that fluff fitted.

[Happyoldgit]

39 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Example I experienced (again) only recently with a 5dr Mini courtesy car whilst my 3dr was being serviced. Seat and wheel in my position meant it was a squeeze between the wheel and the B pillar on the 5dr. Mine is no issue as the door is longer. Someone shorter in the leg but longer in the arm wouldn't have the same issue. 

My better half traded in the practical 3 year old Kuga S Line I bought new for her and got a totally impractical (for our location and circumstances) 5 door Cooper S as she had always fancied one. I'm hardly a giant but I struggle to get in the ruddy thing then struggle to get out of it both as passenger and driver. I have encountered more inconsiderate and downright bullying from other drivers than I have in any other vehicle. I wish she would get rid of the damned thing but no, she loves it.
This is not a press review but an off topic brought to you free of charge courtesy of yours truly 

😁

[Happyoldgit]

7 minutes ago, deep said:

I (and quite a few people I know) am sick to death of all the electronic junk and big brother stuff being endlessly chucked into modern vehicles.  If anything, the problem with the Grenadier is that it already has too much of it, not too little!  A strong appeal is that it doesn't have all that fluff fitted.

 

Best stick to older stuff then.