Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[landroversforever]

1 minute ago, ThreePointFive said:

They wanted to be sited near a port as they aim for high export sales.

I'm reserving judgement, partly I just don't like the feeling that hiding how it looks is a marketing game of some sort when most manufacturers start with an approximation through a concept car.

There are too many unknowns and I think producing a car in what will have to be limited volume is going to put it straight into the new Defender's price bracket.

I think they're doing it right for the car if its what they say it's going to be. The underside is what matters more than anything with building a utility/commercial vehicle. 

[ThreePointFive]

You are right. Those bits of bracketry were not in the original chassis photos, interesting.

[WesBrooks]

Unless LR are making some huge profit on the defender I'd guess this would be more than the defender purely based on sales volumes.

There was also regular comment about how much more expensive the defender was to produce relative to the Range Rovers, and Grenadier have reverted back to more like a Defender style build.

[Daan]

1 hour ago, miketomcat said:

Just saying....

Way ahead of its time!

[landroversforever]

9 minutes ago, WesBrooks said:

Unless LR are making some huge profit on the defender I'd guess this would be more than the defender purely based on sales volumes.

There was also regular comment about how much more expensive the defender was to produce relative to the Range Rovers, and Grenadier have reverted back to more like a Defender style build.

That's because so much of it was hand built. Just take the body... parts of it were built by hand, then app separated for painting, then built back on the car. Even just changing that bit to a more modern robotic construction of the shell as one piece will make a huge difference in both time and cost.

[tiddler]

3 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

That's because so much of it was hand built. Just take the body... parts of it were built by hand, then app separated for painting, then built back on the car. Even just changing that bit to a more modern robotic construction of the shell as one piece will make a huge difference in both time and cost.

You're spot on with this reply.  It was the body construction and the dashboard/wiring that was so labour intensive with the old Defender. If that aspect alone was modernised then it would start to be a more profitable product.

 

[WesBrooks]

Yeah I realise that but if they are aiming for a fix-it-on-the-field friendly machine it will have a far higher quantity of bolt on/easily removable pieces than the new defender.

So production volume lower, build costs likely to be higher, and durability targets also higher (meaning all critical components are likely to be more expensive) all point towards a more expensive machine than the new defender.

Unless, as I said LR's current margins are significant.

 

[WesBrooks]

I'm guessing UK MOD is fleet sales target #1 followed by forestry and power/telecoms companies. Private sales won't be high on the agenda.

Edited June 9, 2020 by WesBrooks

[Anderzander]

I don’t think it will be more money - the profit margins are far greater on luxury cars, thus the brand shift in JLR; so I’d expect Ineos to sell at a lower margin. I also wouldn’t underestimate how much all of that electronic and posh trim nonsense costs to source and fit to a new car.

 

 

[WesBrooks]

Electronics are cheap most of the time. Manufactured in large batch sizes in the far east.

Trim not so much.

[Anderzander]

2 minutes ago, WesBrooks said:

Electronics are cheap most of the time

But they still have to wire it up in the car - there must be a cost overhead to that longer build time.

[Snagger]

34 minutes ago, WesBrooks said:

Yeah I realise that but if they are aiming for a fix-it-on-the-field friendly machine it will have a far higher quantity of bolt on/easily removable pieces than the new defender.

So production volume lower, build costs likely to be higher, and durability targets also higher (meaning all critical components are likely to be more expensive) all point towards a more expensive machine than the new defender.

Unless, as I said LR's current margins are significant.

 

Captive nuts and robots with bolts are not new technologies.  They can replace a good deal of the hand assembly.  While that helps lower costs, I can’t say I’m comfortable with so many jobs across all industries going automation.  It has a bad effect on employment, the wider economy and society.

[Daan]

I'd say the fact they went shopping for things like engines, gearboxes and axles will have a large effect on the price. to develop an engine, you look at a 10 figure cost, which landrover has to absorb in every car, and even they don't make that many. And yes, depending on how much time it takes to assemble a grenadier, the price will be the biggy. Less than a defender I would have thought.

[Bowie69]

50 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

I also wouldn’t underestimate how much all of that electronic and posh trim nonsense costs to source and fit to a new car.

Electronics costs on most modern cars is 25% of the cost of the materials!

I remember back in the early 90s, the component parts of a Vauxhall Cavalier was just £700....

[FridgeFreezer]

Rumour is they're aiming for similar price to a Hilux, be very interested if they get anywhere near it and/or their actual performance - I can't shake the feeling this is going to be a bit like the Santana PS10 compared to the Defender.

[Waldorf]

They don't have a dealership network. How are Ineos going to sell these things? Let alone service and repair them?

[western]

2 hours ago, WesBrooks said:

I'm guessing UK MOD is fleet sales target #1 followed by forestry and power/telecoms companies. Private sales won't be high on the agenda.

I doubt MOD will touch it for frontline use, as most wheeled frontline vehicles are much heavier with higher payload capacity & fully armoured. there may be some for secondary or airfield duties but these would be supplied on lease contracts through LEX for example

[Tanuki]

1 hour ago, Waldorf said:

They don't have a dealership network. How are Ineos going to sell these things? Let alone service and repair them?

That is likely to be a big problem for commercial/business purchasers: it's no good having a broken vehicle in Finland if the only spares-holding is in Birmingham. And with the Grenadier's "low-ish tech" approach I doubt it will support much in the way of remote diagnostics either.

[Perhaps Ineos should try to do some sort of 'piggyback' deal with a company like Caterpillar or John Deere, so their global dealer- and logistics-network could be used?]

Edited June 9, 2020 by Tanuki

[Bowie69]

With the engines being from BMW I'd expect some sort of hook up there may be possible?

[western]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2021-ineos-grenadier-first-prototype-caught-testing-disguise

[Anderzander]

 

They are unveiling it on the 1st of July 😀

[Bowie69]

ooh, almost look like plastic panels...

[Bowie69]

...I also see exposed bolt heads!

[Chicken Drumstick]

Looking forward to the reveal.

 

On a serious note, I saw someone say about a Grenadier sub-forum here on LR4x4. I think it was meant jokingly, but I'd like to put a +1 to the idea. I think it would be good to welcome such a vehicle on a forum such as this.

[RedLineMike]

had notification today at work about the unveil of the exterior, will be interesting to see what they have come up with