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Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier


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1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

I wondered about that .....

I half wonder if it’s simply that Mr Ratcliffe loves his Defenders - and so they’ve built one.
 

He also offered to buy the tooling didn’t he and continue their production - and apparently JLR initially seemed quite open to it and then said no - so part of me wonders is he rubbing it in a bit. 

2 hours ago, missingsid said:

There are great features on this car and it has huge potential s I wish it well, BUT

 

I really wish they had used a shape that was not such a LR Defneder rip off, it shows a lack of imagination.

I don't think it has been done as a rip off of the defender. I know ratcliffe wanted to buy the tooling in the past. But they've said with this that they went back to function over form. Take the original Defender, Gwagon, FJ40, Wrangler etc.... Yes they've each got their own little styling things going on but generally they're all just a box on wheels. 

 

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31 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

I don't think it has been done as a rip off of the defender. I know ratcliffe wanted to buy the tooling in the past. But they've said with this that they went back to function over form. Take the original Defender, Gwagon, FJ40, Wrangler etc.... Yes they've each got their own little styling things going on but generally they're all just a box on wheels. 

 

True except the Series 2/3 Defender hips are only on those vehicles and his!!

Who took thre group pic earlier, if it is a marketing pic then the use of the Series 1 has two purposes, link to Willy's next to it and keep well away from Defender.

I'll try not to keep on about it, promise.

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8 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

There were questions about the loadbay - a picture has surfaced!

It looks a fair bit wider that an 110?

Grenadier loadbay.jpg

They've fixed one of the problems Land Rovers carried for two thirds of a century by making full width doors.  Two doors make a lot of sense, seen in this light too, as a single door that wide would be a problem in any sort of confined space, not to mention the benefit of sharing the hinge load.  I'd expect the whole car to be a bit wider than a Series 2 to Defender era Land Rover because cabin width had always been a complaint with those cars (though not from me!).  This is looking more and more like a Disco 3/4 with live axles and a more practical build.  I really wouldn't mind one!

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8 hours ago, missingsid said:

There are great features on this car and it has huge potential s I wish it well, BUT

 

I really wish they had used a shape that was not such a LR Defneder rip off, it shows a lack of imagination.

I really wish they had been strong enough to stick to their initial rumblings to build it in Wales... I was interested until they backed off on that, but it seems it was a tacky initial sales gimmick to drum up interest.

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That seems so alien to me ...... for a number of reasons.

I genuinely think they hadn’t anticipated the Hambach factory coming up, and that for all sorts of reasons it justifies the change of direction in terms of a business decision.

Not that we need an analogy - but it’s like you are building a 100” Land Rover Defender starting from scratch and you find a stalled project on eBay that’s well made and had a fortune spent on it - at a good price.

And business aside - I don’t feel any great sense of loss to my pride, or a national pride, or my potential brand loyalty for the fact that it will be built in France.

Whereabouts something is made factors very little in my decision making, putting aside modern slavery and unethical supply chains. Quality, Price, Company Principles are way way higher than where for me. If it isn’t ever a factor.

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8 hours ago, Anderzander said:

That seems so alien to me ...... for a number of reasons.

I genuinely think they hadn’t anticipated the Hambach factory coming up, and that for all sorts of reasons it justifies the change of direction in terms of a business decision.

Not that we need an analogy - but it’s like you are building a 100” Land Rover Defender starting from scratch and you find a stalled project on eBay that’s well made and had a fortune spent on it - at a good price.

And business aside - I don’t feel any great sense of loss to my pride, or a national pride, or my potential brand loyalty for the fact that it will be built in France.

Whereabouts something is made factors very little in my decision making, putting aside modern slavery and unethical supply chains. Quality, Price, Company Principles are way way higher than where for me. If it isn’t ever a factor.

I feel they conned us with all the nostalgic marketing that LR tried... pictures of old series and defenders in the background, talking about the made in Britain history BUT then they took it one step further and said ok, we will make it in Britain. So I thought, hmmm thats interesting, worth following and supporting... first chance though and they were off. Seems very fickle to me. Might as well buy a Toyota or Wrangler...

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26 minutes ago, reb78 said:

I feel they conned us with all the nostalgic marketing that LR tried... pictures of old series and defenders in the background, talking about the made in Britain history..............................

And that, in a nutshell, is the beauty of marketing!

Jim Radcliffe and Ineos did not get to where they are today by not chasing up all of the commercial advantage they could get. Hambach saves them a lot of set up costs and making a sustainable business from a small run niche vehicle is always going to be a big ask.

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5 hours ago, reb78 said:

Might as well buy a Toyota or Wrangler...

Wranglers have no space inside so are not great if you want to go somewhere or do something.

"Real" Land Cruisers are not sold in the first world and they have stupid design features like different track width front and rear.

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15 minutes ago, Red90 said:

Wranglers have no space inside so are not great if you want to go somewhere or do something.

"Real" Land Cruisers are not sold in the first world and they have stupid design features like different track width front and rear.

I know. It was a bit of a tongue in cheek comment. Unless the Ineos suits my needs massively more than something else, I will look around. Personally I was more likely to cut it some slack if it was built in the UK because rightly or wrongly that appeals to me. That's just me... others don't mind and that's their prerogative. I am less much less interested in it now it doesn't tick that box and all the more likely to look at getting an F150 instead... if I am being really honest!

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23 hours ago, missingsid said:

True except the Series 2/3 Defender hips are only on those vehicles and his!!

Who took thre group pic earlier, if it is a marketing pic then the use of the Series 1 has two purposes, link to Willy's next to it and keep well away from Defender.

I'll try not to keep on about it, promise.

Jimny also has the hips too. Daresay there are others too.

 

W8mHpPMh.jpg

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1 hour ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Jimny also has the hips too. Daresay there are others too.

From the Autocar article I posted earlier:- 

Most reminiscent of the Defender is the Grenadier’s body ‘shoulder’ that runs from the top of the front wings in a dead straight line right to the rear end. Ecuyer said this gives room for ‘stuff’ inside the bottom half of the doors while allowing their tops to be “no thicker than they need to be”.

Sounds like an engineering choice to me; modern vehicles have more 'gubbins' in doors than old ones. My Morgan's cut down doors can barely support a pocket, an old mini could hold wine bottles, and many cars have speakers, electric motors and locking solenoids.

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What we need to do is manufacture a body kit that resembles the Grenadier but fits onto a Discovery one rolling chassis for people like me who won't be able to afford one for twenty years.

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1 hour ago, ballcock said:

What we need to do is manufacture a body kit that resembles the Grenadier but fits onto a Discovery one rolling chassis for people like me who won't be able to afford one for twenty years.

Tongue in cheek but ... you can already get most of that kit!  Just buy the relevant Series/Defender body panels (shortened to suit) and it will look very similar.

Actually, the fact the Grenadier has a strong resemblance to early Land Rovers is a definite plus.  It's a comfortably familiar and practical look and vastly nicer than what Land Rover produced, in the eyes of many of us.  The only real down side is that boat prow up front - but that is a nanny state requirement and a much better solution than the cheap and tacky looking, bulbous and vulnerable solution LR came up with, so I could live with that.

Edited by deep
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3 hours ago, Red90 said:

Anyone that does not believe they have purposely copied the traditional Land Rover look has their head deeply buried in the sand.

Thank you.

 

"Actually, the fact the Grenadier has a strong resemblance to early Land Rovers is a definite plus. "

Yes its called plagiarism.

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5 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Jimny also has the hips too. Daresay there are others too.

 

W8mHpPMh.jpg

Nah thats a swage line not the same.

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13 hours ago, missingsid said:

Nah thats a swage line not the same.

It is. It is in the same place, doing the same job. It just isn't quite as pronounced. But the Grenadiers also looks different in shape and profile to that of a Defender or Series.

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13 hours ago, missingsid said:

Thank you.

 

"Actually, the fact the Grenadier has a strong resemblance to early Land Rovers is a definite plus. "

Yes its called plagiarism.

No it isn't, that is taking an extreme stance. Lots of things look 'similar'. Certain model years of Passat and Mondeo share a very strong design ethos.

As Mr Jim R is a self declared Land Rover Series/Defender fan. And he building a vehicle in the image of.... ;) It is of no surprise that it has very strong inspiration.

The Grenadier and a Defender clearly look very different to anyone with eyes. But it is also clear to see there has been huge inspiration in the design.

For example, here is the origin of the Land Cruiser line.... do you see any familiarity with any other 4x4's that would have been around in 1950'ish? 😉

Toyota-BJ-FJ-Land-Cruiser.jpg

 

Or maybe you consider this plagiarism too:

HGW-GB110356C.jpg

In which case what has Ineos done any different to the Rover car company....??

 

 

Lets also not forget, Rover has had other 'inspired' car designs too...

SD1_1.jpg

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I think there’s a lot of truth above from Reb, Red, Steve, Sid and Deep.  
 

And those are definitely sewage lines on the Suzuki - there is no depth to them for anything other than styling and rigidity.  The barrel sides of the SII, and the following models, allowed for door locks not to impinge on occupants, gave a neat spot for the rear lights, created enough room for modern spec number plates, and caught a lot more mud with a greater track than previous body dimensions could.  None of those can be applied to the Zuk, but some can be applied to the Grenadier, at least the door mechanisms.  But I agree that it is more a styling nod on the Grenadier to the Defender than an engineering solution.

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4 hours ago, steve b said:

that's a bit strong , they are not that bad.....😉

Steve

 

🤣🤣🤣. Once in a while, autocorrect does a corker!  
 

I quite like Suzuki - I’d sooner have one of those than a Pretender.

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On 9/10/2020 at 10:01 AM, Chicken Drumstick said:

No it isn't, that is taking an extreme stance. Lots of things look 'similar'. Certain model years of Passat and Mondeo share a very strong design ethos.

As Mr Jim R is a self declared Land Rover Series/Defender fan. And he building a vehicle in the image of.... ;) It is of no surprise that it has very strong inspiration.

The Grenadier and a Defender clearly look very different to anyone with eyes. But it is also clear to see there has been huge inspiration in the design.

For example, here is the origin of the Land Cruiser line.... do you see any familiarity with any other 4x4's that would have been around in 1950'ish? 😉

Toyota-BJ-FJ-Land-Cruiser.jpg

 

Or maybe you consider this plagiarism too:

HGW-GB110356C.jpg

In which case what has Ineos done any different to the Rover car company....??

 

 

Lets also not forget, Rover has had other 'inspired' car designs too...

SD1_1.jpg

Absolutely agree that the prototype was plagiarised, it was a jeep's rolling chassis. Wouldn't know about the SD1, what was it a copy of?

The modern car industry like the film/music/tv industries copies each other work if it is sucessfull. Good business sense of just lazy.

Only the musinc industry seems to do anything about it.

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