Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[Snagger]

17 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

 

There is definitely a touchscreen there! The iDrive controller makes it possible to use gloves and most functions seem to have a switch. From the various videos I've seen, the screen is for the infotainment and the waypoint app. It also seems to show the speedo - which bothers me. 

Ah, so there is.  I should know better than to judge from photos from groups on my phone - the screen is just too small to see the details of the photo properly.  I had thought what is the screen was just a stereo control panel.  Still, at least all the important stuff has physical switching.

As for the instruments being in the centre, I’m not a fan of that either, but it is reminiscent of the Series I and II and the Mini, new and old.  It must make a big difference to production costs, which is why even Tesla are using central displays.  It should also make getting parts easier when overseas if they can minimise the number of region or nation specific components.

 

[Jamie_grieve]

I was fortunate enough to be invited to Goodwood by a friend to go and get a look at the Grenadier. 
My first comments are not actually about the vehicle at all but about the team they had assembled to face the public. 

Clearly a lot of thought has gone into the selection process of the team members who were on the stand compared to the sales and marketing types who would usually fill the role. We spent literally hours talking with all of these guys and at no point did they ever lose interest in the subject. Amongst the mix was a military vehicle instructor, ex Camel trophy competitor / Land Rover support, Master tech, parts catalogue and workshop manual creator, accessory engineer, development engineer, some, I didn’t get their roles but who worked with Rolls Royce amongst others.  The driver who was a UK test driver with all the appropriate motorsport credentials on road had a Jeep JK as a personal vehicle and was going on an overland trip to Morrocco with it. The Jeep has a similar type of suspension layout and his description of how different the Grenadier was to drive was particularly enlightning. It was the absolute polar opposite to the new Defender launch I went to where nobody could describe where to put the towing eye or how to put the transfer case in neutral.

I was able to look at and discuss but not necessarily touch or share photographs of every aspect of the vehicle. This ‘window’ we’re getting the opportunity to look into the development of it is really interesting to me and they have definitely been listening to commentary from far and wide. A good example of this I was told was following a visit to a vehicle fleet (I coincidentally managed years ago) in Africa, they changed the hand brake to cable operation instead of the original electronic type that was planned.

Rather than me blab on for pages about my thoughts and musings, are there any particular things that people want to discuss ? I took about 80 pictures but was asked not to share any from underneath which is fair enough given that this was still a prototype vehicle and it was really there as part of the interior reveal.

On the Subject of the interior, I couldn’t care less if we were sitting on milk crates and using string to work the wipers so I probably won’t get drawn into too many conversations about the seat covering materials or the type of leather on the steering wheel but from a functionality perspective there are pages of potential discussion. My interior highlight is the amount of lashing points on basically every surface which was yet another source of annoyance with older Land Rovers. That being said, some weren’t as strong looking as the new defenders but there was a lot more of them. 

The picture was taken around closing time and this was probably the quietest that the stand was. It attracted more consistent interest and crowds than any other single car that I saw there so they must be doing something right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Jamie_grieve

[Anderzander]

Sounds great Jamie. 
 

One of the concerns on these pages was the bash plate coming down from the rear bumper to the axle ..  what’s under that? And does it look vulnerable to being hung up? 

[reb78]

Plus why those silly trailing arm mounts that hang down beneath the chassis??

[Jamie_grieve]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

Sounds great Jamie. 
 

One of the concerns on these pages was the bash plate coming down from the rear bumper to the axle ..  what’s under that? And does it look vulnerable to being hung up? 

Yes indeed, a concern shared by some wearing Grenadier shirts that day and myself included. 

There’s a silencer above it and the forwards facing leading edge of the ‘sand scoop’ as it’s been christened on social media would get caught in all but the mildest of terrains. I think they’re possibly teasing us with it. In a worst case scenario if it were to remain on production vehicles it would be very easy to remove and fix the exhaust routing properly. The leading edge is about level with the bottom of the axle tube at ride height and there is probably 50-60mm of bump travel to the hollow rubber springs (like a 70 series and some other vehicles use which act as progressive bump stops) Then maybe another 100mm after that on a hard bump so the sand scoop could well see itself ripped off, especially on undulating ruts and definitely on rocks and stumps. Thinking about it, it would be super easy to reverse over a stump or the wrong kind of mall kerb and get totally hung up on it when it goes between the scoop and the axle.

[Jamie_grieve]

57 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Plus why those silly trailing arm mounts that hang down beneath the chassis??

My take on that is to get the required amount of link separation on the axle so that the links and bushes have a decent service life then the chassis ends needed to be where they are to get the handling characteristics that they wanted. The lower links have bit of triangulation on them which puts the forwards end under the chassis instead of on the side like a defender.  It does look really low in the flesh too. I suppose I look at it with two hats on, from a fleet and serviceability perspective, the design is awesome, from a pure off roading perspective, it’s awful.

[landroversforever]

3 minutes ago, Jamie_grieve said:

My take on that is to get the required amount of link separation on the axle so that the links and bushes have a decent service life then the chassis ends needed to be where they are to get the handling characteristics that they wanted. The lower links have bit of triangulation on them which puts the forwards end under the chassis instead of on the side like a defender.  It does look really low in the flesh too. I suppose I look at it with two hats on, from a fleet and serviceability perspective, the design is awesome, from a pure off roading perspective, it’s awful.

How far do you reckon they hang down Jamie? 

[Jamie_grieve]

35 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

How far do you reckon they hang down Jamie? 

Umm, The actual link is much higher up than the lowest extremity of the bracket so in real life it doesn’t look as bad as it does in the pictures. It does all sit much lower than a defender but nothing’s as low as the springs on a 70 series for example.

 

[jeremy996]

13 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

My take on that is to get the required amount of link separation on the axle so that the links and bushes have a decent service life then the chassis ends needed to be where they are to get the handling characteristics that they wanted. The lower links have bit of triangulation on them which puts the forwards end under the chassis instead of on the side like a defender.  It does look really low in the flesh too. I suppose I look at it with two hats on, from a fleet and serviceability perspective, the design is awesome, from a pure off roading perspective, it’s awful.

For me the serviceability is probably most important - I'm not a mud monster. Is it likely I can service it on my drive, without a lift? Were there any hints about service and technical data? 

[Anderzander]

I also wonder how relevant it is to anything but quite hardcore off roading ?  I can’t remember the last time I hit a trailing arm or dragged the chassis rail - and if I was somewhere remote I’d be actively avoiding situations that introduced that level of risk. So I wonder how much of a problem it really is? 

[Jamie_grieve]

1 hour ago, jeremy996 said:

For me the serviceability is probably most important - I'm not a mud monster. Is it likely I can service it on my drive, without a lift? Were there any hints about service and technical data? 

You can definitely service the mechanical things on your drive, it uses metalastic bushes which seem appropriately sized, propshafts have CV’s rather than UJ’s, steering components would be easy but you’ll probably need a bigger ball joint splitter, The engine uses a paper cartridge type filter and as long as you’re in the OECD you can probably service the gearbox too as it needs a special fluid made from unicorn blood or something. We actually discussed this at length and they weren’t discounting the idea to destructively test a gearbox by putting ATF in it. It could be down the track that they get ZF to modify the clutch and brake pack linings to accommodate it and potentially have another shift matrix or programme.  Hub bearings are conventional taper rollers without spacers on stubs instead of those stupid unit hubs so that’s another plus.  One of the guys there was part of the team building the EPC and workshop manuals, those might yet turn up in the touch screen. He definitely didn’t say no when asked about it. 

Some parts like airbags or brake components or any other safety related items require full traceability to avoid vehicle recalls so they can’t really put everything on Amazon so access to a parts and repair network is in the pipeline.

[Jamie_grieve]

56 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

I also wonder how relevant it is to anything but quite hardcore off roading ?  I can’t remember the last time I hit a trailing arm or dragged the chassis rail - and if I was somewhere remote I’d be actively avoiding situations that introduced that level of risk. So I wonder how much of a problem it really is? 

It’s definitely important, what some people in the UK (for example) think of as hard core off roading is a daily commute to others in less developed countries or areas exposed to more extreme weather, particularly in the rainy season or in deep wet winter snow where additional drag from unnecessarily low slung components could literally be the difference between life and death. OK, that’s maybe a bit dramatic but in snow or deep mud dragging or not dragging your control arm mounts and dampers will be the difference between success and failure of arriving at your destination as intended.

If you aren’t dragging your chassis rail on the ground now and again, you’re probably not in very difficult terrain or driving where there aren’t roads which is fine, especially if you’re on your own and driving responsibly by treading lightly.

[jeremy996]

21 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

.........One of the guys there was part of the team building the EPC and workshop manuals, those might yet turn up in the touch screen. He definitely didn’t say no when asked about it. 

Some parts like airbags or brake components or any other safety related items require full traceability to avoid vehicle recalls so they can’t really put everything on Amazon so access to a parts and repair network is in the pipeline.

Having an EPC and full manuals on the vehicle would be great, but the screen is not that big; I'd love a conventional DVD/CD so I can print bits off! I'd even be wiling to spend some money on it, to get the most up to date one, so long as it is not much more than £20 a time. . Any guesses on the OBD access? Via the screen or plug in a reader?

I have thought long and hard about access to service; I've had issues with main dealers every time I gave them a vehicle! I'm likely to check that what I'm told has been done is done and I have been disappointed too often.

(The text below has been hacked around from entries I have posted on Pistonheads, but summarises my thoughts)

The elephant in the room Ineos need to solve for me is servicing and the availability of spares and maintenance data. Back when the project was launched, the concept was "open source" and collaboration with agricultural repairers and smaller independent businesses. If that means I can buy parts as a private individual/small fleet operator and get factory support, (a posh pdf manual, helpline and a service wiki would do), I will be well content.

If Ineos can avoid building, (and paying for), a dealer network and harness the goodwill of smaller businesses, they could rejuvenate the small country garage or non-franchised mechanical repair shops worldwide. If they sort the service and maintenance side, the Grenadier should start to sell themselves - lifetime cost of ownership, not the starting cost is the driver here for businesses.

OK. So what are the alternatives? The Tesla approach or the conventional motor dealer approach? Neither seem particularly functional at the moment, as Tesla seems to be beset with supply, crash damage repair and servicing issues and the big dealer chains have their own issues, often around paying peanuts and getting monkeys. People are getting rich in the motor trade, but it is not the ones with the diagnostic laptop and the spanners.

My favourite franchised dealers were the single site, family owned ones, which are now both uneconomic, (they cannot afford the franchise fee), and very unfashionable, (even if they had the franchise fee, the principal wouldn't award it), which is a terrible shame as they were often marque enthusiasts and often went the extra mile with customer service. Ineos Automotive have previously said the vehicle will be as simple as possible and capable of maintenance in the field, (have a look at the Halo Trust video, https://player.vimeo.com/video/558095245). This is much like the support experience for many agricultural engineers who did engineering at college and are now working for the likes of the tractor manufacturers, plant makers or are self employed.

Say Ineos Automotive offered a low or no cost repair franchise to individuals or businesses who can show suitable experience in a mechanical servicing role. The engines and gearboxes will still need specialist repair in the event of catastrophic failure, (no change there), but the rest of the vehicle is no more complex than the plant/tractors/milking machinery they are already dealing with. Diagnosis is always key; is the engine really broken or is the wire to a sensor broken? OBD makes a big difference, but experience of proper fault tracing is very useful.

Some retail buyers may be put off by the lack of shiny glass and chrome retail palaces, but the Grenadier isn't aimed at retail buyers, and those that do are looking for an experience. (I can assure them that visiting my local agri engineer is an experience!)

Originally Ineos talked about "open source" access to technical data; on balance I think they need to retain some control on who works on their vehicles with access to spares and the franchise model allows that, but keeping it cheap would reduce massively the barriers to entry and hopefully the maintenance cost overall. (Jamie_grieve's comment about traceability rang a bell).

I do not see this as "Camel Trophy romance", more a reinvention of the corner garage and the non-chain franchised service dealer. We are not talking about many vehicles here, a small fleet garage could take on the franchise just for access to full service support for their own vehicles.

The more I think about it, I would be willing to spend more on a premium product, but it has to be premium in a manner I value, not a turd rolled in glitter. For me, that is serviceability, reliability and longevity, not impressing the Jones's. (And they were impressed when I briefly parked an £80k LR Defender 90 on the drive!)

[Jamie_grieve]

Probably the most informative video out there on the Grenadier:

 

 

[jeremy996]

Just to complete Jamie_grieve's post, here is the second video in the series. His conclusion amused me, but I guess key is this is a vehicle designed in the last 5 years, whereas the old Defender was (mostly) a Series III plonked on a Range Rover chassis, with an dash-pack stolen from random parts in the BL/ARG/Rover bin, followed by less random parts from BMW, Ford and commodity European and Far Eastern parts suppliers.

If it failed the "better than the old Defender" test, then Ineos, Jim Radcliffe and Toby Ecuyer should be paraded naked through the streets of London.

 

[Anderzander]

I just watched the other night - very interesting.  Wonder what he’s seen that he can’t say.

[deep]

I see the powerfuluk people just put up quite a long video on U tube, after they spent a weekend at an event put on by Ineos.  It was unusually negative for them (I couldn't disagree more about the handbrake and control labelling!) but does give a pretty detailed look at one of the prototypes.  I got to the end and thought that, if I really was in the market for a new vehicle, this would be it.  Sorry no direct link but it should be easy to find.

[Anderzander]

I’d never heard of these people ? 

[deep]

11 hours ago, Anderzander said:

I’d never heard of these people ? 

They regularly put out very helpful "how to" videos on a range of Land Rover (and other) products, including the new Defender.  They do a good job of showing the details without being boring.  They've definitely helped me in my (so far futile) quest to find where naughty rodents have chewed some wires in my Freelander 2.

[jeremy996]

Watched the PowerfulUK video and agree with Deep, I loath electric handbrakes - just too much to go wrong and will, once the vehicle has some age behind it.

Most vehicles are built these days for the first owner and to get to the end of the warranty with the minimum of expense. Building a vehicle to last is not in the modern idiom; they are supposed to self-destruct, so you have to buy another one! 

If Ineos can build and sell a robust and long-lasting vehicle, I will be delighted. The PowerfulUK narrator mentioned the green credentials of a longer lasting vehicle, (lifted from my website, written 13 years ago,  http://www.jeremymedwards.co.uk/Site/Land_Rover_Blog/Entries/2008/7/22_Durable_Car_Ownership.html)

 "...academic papers presented to a conference, (www.score-network.org) in November 2006. The SCORE conference, (Sustainable Consumption Research Exchange), included one paper on “Cars and Sustainable Consumption” by Paul Nieuwenhuis of Cardiff University. Here, the cost of actually running the vehicle is almost ignored, the emphasis is on the impact of planned obsolescence and the need for there to be an emotional “connection”, to break the normal cycle of consumption and disposal. The author previously identified that the production and disposal elements of a car’s life used up between 20-30% of the total energy used up in it’s total lifetime, (1994), so each car made more durable immediately saves between a fifth and a third of the total energy generally consumed in a “normal’ car’s life."

It may be hard to believe that Henry Ford I was an advocate for a durable vehicle, (the Model T), but soon discovered the forbidden fruit of planned obsolescence and regular model changes.

[Happyoldgit]

Those last two or three videos have, in my view, been the most informative to date.

As an aside, and I am not sure if it has been mentioned before in this section or elsewhere, but after a chat among the A&M team back in October 2020 Jeremy 996 sent an email to Ineos on behalf of LR4x4. The idea was to inform them of the existence of our forum, that we are independent and self funded, that our membership has a wealth of knowledge in the 'practical side of 4x4 ownership / operation / maintenance / design / fabrication' etc. Jeremy also mentioned that we had set up a section entirely devoted to the Ineos Grenadier and that some of the comments from our members may be of interest and potentially of assistance to them.

We asked for nothing, it was just a courtesy "reach out" to a new manufacturer who seem to be striving to produce something of interest to a number of our members. 

I think I am right in believing Jeremy has yet to receive any form of reply.

[simonr]

24 minutes ago, Happyoldgit said:

Those last two or three videos have, in my view, been the most informative to date.

As an aside, and I am not sure if it has been mentioned before in this section or elsewhere, but after a chat among the A&M team back in October 2020 Jeremy 996 sent an email to Ineos on behalf of LR4x4. The idea was to inform them of the existence of our forum, that we are independent and self funded, that our membership has a wealth of knowledge in the 'practical side of 4x4 ownership / operation / maintenance / design / fabrication' etc. Jeremy also mentioned that we had set up a section entirely devoted to the Ineos Grenadier and that some of the comments from our members may be of interest and potentially of assistance to them.

We asked for nothing, it was just a courtesy "reach out" to a new manufacturer who seem to be striving to produce something of interest to a number of our members. 

I think I am right in believing Jeremy has yet to receive any form of reply.

Several of the videos make it quite clear, Ineos are not interested in the 'hobby' customers who fix / modify vehicles themselves - they are after the utility market, which to be fair is much bigger.

While many of us do buy new vehicles, I suspect the majority of us don't - and we don't represent their intended use case either.  I would have been more surprised if they had responded.

Si

[Happyoldgit]

Just now, simonr said:

Several of the videos make it quite clear, Ineos are not interested in the 'hobby' customers who fix / modify vehicles themselves - they are after the utility market, which to be fair is much bigger.

While many of us do buy new vehicles, I suspect the majority of us don't - and we don't represent their intended use case either.  I would have been more surprised if they had responded.

Si

True indeed but in my ever so humble opinion thought it was worth a shot.

[simonr]

I agree - and it was a good thing to do.

[missingsid]

4 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Those last two or three videos have, in my view, been the most informative to date.

As an aside, and I am not sure if it has been mentioned before in this section or elsewhere, but after a chat among the A&M team back in October 2020 Jeremy 996 sent an email to Ineos on behalf of LR4x4. The idea was to inform them of the existence of our forum, that we are independent and self funded, that our membership has a wealth of knowledge in the 'practical side of 4x4 ownership / operation / maintenance / design / fabrication' etc. Jeremy also mentioned that we had set up a section entirely devoted to the Ineos Grenadier and that some of the comments from our members may be of interest and potentially of assistance to them.

We asked for nothing, it was just a courtesy "reach out" to a new manufacturer who seem to be striving to produce something of interest to a number of our members. 

I think I am right in believing Jeremy has yet to receive any form of reply.

And yet Govs and spec EU want only new cars on the road, presumably so as to keep updating emissions and economy benefits at the cost of recycling by pretending recycling is better than longevity.