Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[jeremy996]

2 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

I think that's a little misleading, the engine and gearbox are X5 (B57or B58 coupled to a ZF 8HP70) but the transfer case is bespoke, the propshafts are bespoke and the axles are Carrera. I'm maybe being a little pedantic.

It wasn't my analogy and "reworked as a proper off roader" is enough of a caveat. No one in their right mind would describe any generation of X5 as an off roader; even BMW call it a "Sports Activity Vehicle".

With wide road rubber and a 20" wading depth, an X5 is likely to find a wet grassy meadow or ford as impassable as the Darian Gap.

[Jamie_grieve]

16 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

It wasn't my analogy and "reworked as a proper off roader" is enough of a caveat. No one in their right mind would describe any generation of X5 as an off roader; even BMW call it a "Sports Activity Vehicle".

With wide road rubber and a 20" wading depth, an X5 is likely to find a wet grassy meadow or ford as impassable as the Darian Gap.

 

You're totally missing my point. It's your comment on drivetrain that's misleading and it wasn't an analogy. With the exception of the engines which are in about 20 different BMW's and the ZF gearbox which is in literally hundreds of different vehicles around the world including the new defender, there's no communality between the X5 and the grenadier.

I think it's that he grenadier has such a different and unrelated layout and not merely 'reworked' was my main issue as the X5 is an SUV with independent suspension without low range and is as (ir)relevant to the grenadier componentry as a 3 or 5 series saloon.

[jeremy996]

10 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

You're totally missing my point.

No, I am not. They are not the same, but the two most mechanically complex and expensive components are shared, they both seat 5 and they both have 4 driven wheels. I understand that the transfer box is designed and built by Tremec, who are no fools, so the building blocks give me significant confidence.

The X5 has its failings, but most of them revolve around using it for things it was not designed for or keeping it for longer than the original design expectation. I am not a fan of plastic bits on engines as they do not age very well, so I passed that opinion to the Ineos staff.

I would anticipate that quite a few other components will be pulled from the BMW suppliers pool, certainly the screen, related buttons and joystick are BMW iDrive; Ineos will have a struggle to keep the cost within bounds, so the reuse of components from mainstream suppliers is expected and good business.

I have a Morgan 1972 4/4 1600; it has been described as a "Ford Capri GT in a frock"; any Morgan is a mix of bespoke and parts bin - the 1600 Crossflow with a Weber carburettor is the same specification as a Capri GT; less like a Capri, it has a 2000E 4 speed gearbox, MK1 Granada front discs, Morris 8 rear brakes, a Salisbury back axle usually found under a Commer van,  Ford Cortina rocker switches, random Smiths gauges and a indicator stalk usually found on an early Transit van or Hillman Hunter. Am I bothered? As a shorthand to describe the power and performance available, the phrase will do.

[Jamie_grieve]

12 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

No, I am not.

Ooooohhh yeeess you aaare 

An engine isn't a drivetrain, the engine is shared across the whole BMW lineup. Just because randomly the X5 happens to have 4 driven wheels doesn't make it any more of a valid comparison.

It's especially significant because the Grenadier team has gone to all the bother of putting together a decent looking bespoke transfer case with bespoke axles which are the beating heart and identity of any 4x4 (as opposed to the engine in a sports car perhaps?) and you trivialise it to reworked X5 components, that's my point.

Aaaanyway, away from pedantic arguments, what were your thoughts on the overall ground clearance and rear scoop? My opinion of the ground clearance is that it'll struggle in deep mud and snow but that's a sacrifice to many various design constraints and I can see and accept that. The fuel tank needs a bit of reworking and the rear scoop is frankly ridiculous on a vehicle with so many decent engineers involved.

[jeremy996]

2 hours ago, Jamie_grieve said:

....what were your thoughts on the overall ground clearance and rear scoop? My opinion of the ground clearance is that it'll struggle in deep mud and snow but that's a sacrifice to many various design constraints and I can see and accept that. The fuel tank needs a bit of reworking and the rear scoop is frankly ridiculous on a vehicle with so many decent engineers involved.

I think this is part of the "don't show fools and children things half done" problem; It is still fairly early in the development process and we don't know what the changes already anticipated are. What I was told was "don't worry about them" - whether it was because they won't be on the final vehicle or they will be radically reprofiled, I don't know. For the ground they picked, the ground clearance was not an issue, (it probably would have been OK in my essentially standard 110), but the Grenadier rode noticeably better and with greater refinement. Ian, the driver was very positive about the vehicle and considered it very comfortable and surefooted.

Although I asked the direct question, no one was able to tell me what the tow gear would look like; part of that is that the rear is not fully finalised, so presumably the rear "scoop" and the fuel tank are part of the later revisions.

I don't think Ineos are building a vehicle for deep mud or snow, although we would need to define what deep meant; getting through European noise regulations make big tyres a nightmare, and the ones declared as OE/optional are modest. I would guess the Grenadier will be better than an old Defender out of the box and not as good as the Bigfoot or Rubicon versions of the USA vehicles, but more comfortable than any of them. The front and rear lockers are optional, but Ian cautioned that most people will only get into more bother with them, the front one especially can be misused dangerously.

[jeremy996]

A Youtube video about the 2B Tour and a general overview of the Grenadier. I've seen worse.

 

[jeremy996]

Another Youtube video, this one with a 10 minute interview with Mark Tennant, the Ineos Automotive commercial director from 10:24. Some interesting comments about the aftermarket and Ineos's intended relationship with third party suppliers. 

 

 

[jeremy996]

Episode 10, "Driving the Grenadier", is now out for the registered: https://player.vimeo.com/video/595276675. 

Now on Youtube:- 

 

[rusty_wingnut]

Saw one in the flesh at the weekend, had a good look underneath as well. I'll say it all looks very interesting underneath with plenty of scope for additions etc. The chassis had an excellent looking finish on it, (although not quite on par with my 90s after it was rebuilt), but certainly better than most Defenders I've seen.

 

The interior was nice, it reminded me a lot of the defender, switch gear looks good etc. Always think that BMW shifter looks a little out of place. Steering wheel seemed small. Seats were nice and it was quite comfy, not L322 levels, but it seemed familiar as a Defender owner.

 

Not bad really.

[jeremy996]

Ineos Grenadier are having a Live event on FaceBook and YouTube at 1900BST on the 29th September 2021.

You can add questions on Twitter using the #BGTLive

[deep]

I've been invited to send an $800 deposit on the 30th of September, in order to reserve one.  Feels good that I can afford that much but it's as close as I'll get for a wee while (house shift is looming).  It is a promising moment in the Grenadier journey, I think.

[jeremy996]

19 hours ago, deep said:

I've been invited to send an $800 deposit on the 30th of September, in order to reserve one.  Feels good that I can afford that much but it's as close as I'll get for a wee while (house shift is looming).  It is a promising moment in the Grenadier journey, I think.

I've been invited to give them £450 (GBP) for same.

[deep]

I wish we'd had that exchange rate last time I was in the UK!  The NZ dollar has nearly doubled, relatively, in the last 18 years.

[reb78]

So are you putting money down on something where the final cost is unknown?

Edited September 25, 2021 by reb78

[missingsid]

So a few hundred quid to reserve a manufacturing spot,  Ferrari and others do it. Can you sell the place later (for a large profit)?

[Bowie69]

Refundable deposits, very common now.

[deep]

20 hours ago, reb78 said:

So are you putting money down on something where the final cost is unknown?

No.

[Anderzander]

Quote

The time has come to unveil the next step in the Grenadier’s journey. We’ve shown you how this 4x4 has been built on purpose – join us live at 7pm (BST) on 29th September as we reveal how and where you can buy your Grenadier, how we will supply parts and how servicing will be delivered. 

 

[jeremy996]

Today's regional press release:-

29 September 2021

INEOS OUTLINES ITS PLANS FOR SELLING AND SERVICING THE GRENADIER WORLDWIDE

• INEOS targeting 200 outlets globally for start of sales in July 2022

• Physical coverage complemented by comprehensive online platform to give customers choice in their preferred buying and ownership experience

• Partners will include established dealer groups and 4X4 specialists

• Strong interest in all markets to represent INEOS, particularly from BMW partners with their expertise in servicing the Grenadier’s BMW engines

• Primary network complemented by access to over 10,000 Bosch Car Service workshops worldwide

• Multiple partner agreements signed in Europe, Africa, Asia Pacific and Middle East

• Reservations open from 30th September

INEOS Automotive is striking agreements with retail and aftersales partners around the world to establish up to 200 sales and service points for the July 2022 launch of the Grenadier 4X4. These partners will implement a first-class global aftersales blueprint developed by INEOS together with Robert Bosch GmbH over the last three years. Retail partners will form the backbone of the service network, with additional geographical coverage provided by handpicked Bosch Car Service outlets. The comprehensive service network means most customers will never be further than 50km away from an INEOS-accredited workshop.

Where spare parts are not on the shelf, INEOS is targeting delivery to major markets within 24 hours. “We wanted to give customers the choice of how much they wanted to see us, which means providing a full combination of digital and physical options,” said Mark Tennant, Commercial Director at INEOS Automotive. “Customer convenience, parts availability, service quality: we are focusing on getting the basics right, giving customers the buying experience they want and the aftersales support they need. “If preferred, customers in our main markets will be able to buy their Grenadier online, including organising vehicle finance and handling any part exchanges. But we fully accept that most will want to try before they buy, for which having an extensive network on the ground is essential.” INEOS’s announcement comes as the company opens for online reservations for the Grenadier. Some 75,000 people have now raised their hands as prospective buyers of the vehicle.

These ‘handraisers’ will be able to place a build reservation from 30th September, for an exclusive two-week period. From 14th October, reservations will be open to everyone else.

INEOS Automotive Ltd, 15-19 Britten Street, Chelsea, London, SW3 3TY, UK. ineosgrenadier.com INEOS Automotive Limited is registered in England and Wales (company number 11201576) with its registered office address at Hawkslease, Chapel Lane, Lyndhurst, Hampshire, SO43 7FG, UK.

Deliveries of the Grenadier will begin in July 2022. UK In the UK, INEOS plans to have 23 retail sites in operation ahead of launch, supplemented by Bosch aftersales outlets as required.

Formal agreements already signed with:

• Cambria Automobiles

• Compass Tractors: Bridgwater, Somerset

• JT Hughes: Telford

Further agreements will be confirmed in due course. Prices in UK are expected to start from approx. £48,000 (RRP).

-EndsContact details: Sarah Pelling, Head of PR, INEOS Automotive +44 (0) 7887 451773 sarah.pelling@ineos.com Matt Moore, PFPR Communications +44 (0) 7715 075992 matt.moore@pfpr.com About INEOS Grenadier In 2017, INEOS Chairman Jim Ratcliffe, a car enthusiast and experienced adventurer, identified a gap in the market for a stripped back, utilitarian, hard-working 4x4 engineered for modern day compliance and reliability. INEOS Automotive Limited was formed and a senior team of automotive professionals assembled to bring the vision to reality with a fresh perspective of 4x4 development and manufacturing. Combining rugged British spirit and design with German engineering rigour, the Grenadier will be a truly uncompromising 4x4 built from the ground up. Engineered to overcome all conditions, it will provide best-inclass off-road capability, durability, and reliability to those who depend on a vehicle as a working tool, wherever they are in the world. INEOS Automotive is a subsidiary of INEOS Group (www.ineos.com), a leading manufacturer of petrochemicals, speciality chemicals and oil products. It employs 26,000 people across 36 businesses, with a production network spanning 194 manufacturing facilities in 29 countries. From paints to plastics, textiles to technology, medicines to mobile phones, materials manufactured by INEOS enhance almost every aspect of modern life. In 2019, INEOS had sales of circa $61bn and EBITDA of around $6bn.

INEOS_Automotive_-_Business_Update_-_UK.pdf

[SteveG]

Price has inflated heavily since they first gave ballpark figures. Originally they were talking early to mid 30’s exc VAT for entry commercial that’s now £40K exc VAT, and for private buyers the 2 door van starts at £48K with the station wagon now in the £50K’s 🙄

[elbekko]

1 hour ago, SteveG said:

Price has inflated heavily since they first gave ballpark figures. Originally they were talking early to mid 30’s exc VAT for entry commercial that’s now £40K exc VAT, and for private buyers the 2 door van starts at £48K with the station wagon now in the £50K’s 🙄

It's almost as if building a low-volume car is expensive, especially currently with all the component shortages.

[Happyoldgit]

I am still interested but it will have to be good and well nailed together to get me to spend that amount on it.

[jeremy996]

The live presentation is here:- 

 

I'm not too sure what I take from that, some of the noise and fury on the social media channels would be laughable if it wasn't quite so agressive.

So, positives, the service model is likely to work for me, the parts distributon is trying to work for most users, I don't have anything against the retail chain and I still like the vehicle.

Negatives; the effective price seems to be creeping up, the "half-price G-wagen" is under pressure, no word on actual OTR UK prices for a 5 seat SW, no clarity on the tow gear and the online configurerator is rather rudimentary.

I've sent them the reservation money.

[jeremy996]

Had a bit of a play with the Config system and came up with the appended, which is now my "saved" configuration.

Dark blue, white roof, safari roof, commercial sides, standard seats, rubber floor, smaller wheels and BFGs, extra accessory wiring, no additional diff locks; pretty bare really. 

Still no sign of the tow gear, so that will need to be added later

The bottom line for a Defender 110 5 seater with tow pack in poverty white is £47,700 OTR, so the Grenadier will be more costly, guessing at £52k ish, as there is no official price guidance past a 2 str commercial Grenadier will be £40k +VAT, £48k.

[deep]

I'm curious about your decision to remove the rear windows.  I've driven vehicles with those windows missing and they are deadly to reverse out of an angle park.

I like that colour choice!