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Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier


Bowie69

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5 hours ago, Escape said:

Paid for or not, Mark Evans did get one thing right: "JLR no longer makes the sort of vehicles we (I) want to own".

Mind you, I feel the same about the Grenadier as I don't want an autobox.

At this point, what problems/complaints is the Grenadier actually addressing?

It's not cheap, it's not manual, by necessity it has nearly as much electrics as any other (base model) vehicle out there.

I guess if you MUST have beam axles and a chassis it ticks those boxes?

Kinda feels like the modern Santana PS10.

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Not so sure "problems/complaints" is a helpful way to look at it.  The new Defender is highly complex and undesirable to a lot of people for that reason (replacing an engine because even the factory can't fix the check engine light; replacing the whole vehicle because someone cut a wiring loom installing a towbar etc.).  Other people are addicted to the gadgets and love it.  The Grenadier is as functional as modern regulations allow.  The Defender will be quicker around the Nurburgring, the Grenadier will be easier to keep going for twenty or thirty years.  Both end up being spacious, comfortable and capable of travelling into pretty rough terrain but your choice will depend on what you value.  For me, the new Defender is really a bit of a joke, while the Grenadier is genuinely desirable.

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Another thing is how well it will 'wear' damage.

At work, someone (different dept) had a new Defender - which looked very shiny.  One Monday he came in with the rear quarter panel stoved in (green laning) and I was surprised how bad / ugly it looked. 

A few weeks later, it was fixed (it had cost over £10k apparently) and looked good again.

In a Defender, you kind of expect it to have a few dents & look used - and they wear it well.  I think the same will be true for a Grenadier.

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On 8/17/2022 at 8:07 AM, Escape said:

Paid for or not, Mark Evans did get one thing right: "JLR no longer makes the sort of vehicles we (I) want to own".

Mind you, I feel the same about the Grenadier as I don't want an autobox.

I've slowly come to the realisation that no one makes a car I want to own. And it's not that I'm one of those people that thinks it's not a real car unless it has carbs or you're not really motoring unless you're suffering in some way.

The last car I could own that I "lusted" for was my Jaguar XF*. I've not seen anything I wanted nearly as much since then. They're all highly competent, efficient, fast and comfortable I'm sure, but that's not the sole basis for wanting to own something.

 

*Don't worry, it ate it's own engine. I am not allowed nice things.

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Same here, my most recent car was a 2005 '90 TD5, I've not seen any new cars since that I'd actually like to drive. None that are remotely affordable that is. I wouldn't say no to a Noble M600 or Radford 62/2 (only if I can spec proper mirrors!), but that's not gonna happen.

I can understand why you liked an XF, I've driven an F-pace and that was OK for a modern. But I wouldn't want to trade my 20 years older Range Rover for it.

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I have a new car for my 60 mile round trip commute. I have no interest or enthusiasm for it, I don't wash it and nor do I hoover it, that gets done at its annual service. Its just a tool for transport.

I do get enthusiastic about my 90 though, it's everything the car isn't! 

Mo

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My Freelander 2 is a 2008 model.  Owning it has been a real eye-opener.  Yes, there are good aspects to it but they are not reliability or fixability (try removing the alternator from that Volvo 6.  Good grief, who designed that??).  Worse than that, though, is the Big Brother stuff.  Beepers and buzzers and gearbox and throttle that don't quite let you be in charge.  Then the way over-assisted steering which has become almost normal these days, coupled with ridiculously stiff anti-roll/sway bars ('cos, you know, the Nurburgring thing...).  Anything newer is even worse.  I agree that nobody makes a car any more that I WANT to buy.  I think, however, that the Grenadier might have less of that junk than most and it does come with proper windows and a great layout (structurally and body-wise).  It has more appeal than the rest anyway.

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15 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

I have a new car for my 60 mile round trip commute. I have no interest or enthusiasm for it, I don't wash it and nor do I hoover it, that gets done at its annual service. Its just a tool for transport.

I do get enthusiastic about my 90 though, it's everything the car isn't! 

Mo

We've discusses this at length in another topic some time ago. I can understand why some would prefer to get a new(ish) 'normal'/boring/cheap/... car for commuting, for me that doesn't work. It would get on my nerves very quickly and I've found if I have to drive a car I don't like, I start trashing it which still isn't fun but isn't safe either. Cars and driving are an important aspect of my life (some would argue it's all there is), so no time or place for anything boring. Sure there are frustrations when driving a classic and something doesn't quite work as I want it to, but at least I know I can try to remedy or improve it, whereas in a new one it's probably by design. And on most if not all runs, even the commute to work, there is some enjoyment to be had. Be it that one corner where there's no one in front, a thumbs up from someone or just the sound of the V8 coming to life in the morning. 😎 

I'd consider the Grenadier if for some reason I was forced to get a new car, but as it is I don't see any advantages over my old Range Rover but a lot of things I don't like: autobox, touchscreen & dash, BMW engine, and the unavoidable big brother stuff every car has to have these days.

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On 8/26/2022 at 3:01 PM, jeremy996 said:

The latest marketing wheeze from Ineos Grenadier; an e-mail sent out inviting order holders to apply to collect their Grenadier from somewhere remote.

I have applied, but I am in France for the September dates where they are checking their applicants are basically competent, I'd be astonished if selected. The collection trip dates are in November 2022. 

  VIEW IN BROWSER

cfdf8a3c-ab5b-4177-9d6d-6270ce6a0de3.png

7068659b-bc07-407e-84d4-3a1671aed22d.gif
Hi Jeremy,

Your new INEOS Grenadier is almost here.

As a no-nonsense 4X4, it’s built on purpose to excel off-road. And because you’re among the first to order one, we want to offer you an exclusive chance to put it through its paces. In a truly memorable way.

To mark the first customer deliveries later this year, we’re inviting three European and UK based Grenadier owners to pick up their new Grenadier. Not from the local agent, but from us, at an undisclosed off-road location. Sound interesting?

If selected, you’ll face an epic journey: driving your Grenadier the hard way home. Starting in one of Europe’s wildest and most isolated regions, you’ll face extremely challenging off-road terrain and have the chance to put your new vehicle to the test. A proper handover, for a proper off-roader. On us.

Think you can handle taking the hard way home? Apply here before 31st August 2022.

Best of luck,

The Grenadier Team

Doesn't this sort of prove the vehicle you had (and presumably own) to get to the drop off point was just as capable as the one you're collecting from it?

Seems like just as much of an advert for the many old Defenders that I suspect will be used for the outbound journey...

I might be missing a crucial point but I only have so much time in the day to read glossy salesman marketing w__k.

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17 minutes ago, ThreePointFive said:

Doesn't this sort of prove the vehicle you had (and presumably own) to get to the drop off point was just as capable as the one you're collecting from it?

Seems like just as much of an advert for the many old Defenders that I suspect will be used for the outbound journey...

I might be missing a crucial point but I only have so much time in the day to read glossy salesman marketing exercise.

It doesn't make any mention on there about taking your own vehicle there. I'm assuming they'd just fly the winners out.

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3 hours ago, ThreePointFive said:

Doesn't this sort of prove the vehicle you had (and presumably own) to get to the drop off point was just as capable as the one you're collecting from it?

Seems like just as much of an advert for the many old Defenders that I suspect will be used for the outbound journey...

I might be missing a crucial point but I only have so much time in the day to read glossy salesman marketing w__k.

I am reminded of the YouTube video of BMW x5s in Namibia with a Defender holding the food and drink.

The prize is being delivered on Ineos money to the remote location and driving home. The winners will be flown/taxied to the start point. There is a bit more detail in the terms and conditions.

I have clients in procurement who are being romanced by Ineos to replace all of the old Defenders in the big utility fleets. It is at an early stage as Ineos Automotive have no spare vehicles to sell in the UK; the Double cab and extended wheelbase editions are still some time away.

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On 8/20/2022 at 10:13 AM, simonr said:

Another thing is how well it will 'wear' damage.

At work, someone (different dept) had a new Defender - which looked very shiny.  One Monday he came in with the rear quarter panel stoved in (green laning) and I was surprised how bad / ugly it looked. 

A few weeks later, it was fixed (it had cost over £10k apparently) and looked good again.

In a Defender, you kind of expect it to have a few dents & look used - and they wear it well.  I think the same will be true for a Grenadier.

Having just had a poke around over of the pre-production Grenadiers at Westmoreland County Show, I can confirm that it wears battle scars well, much like a Defender. Okay, it didn't have any major ones and it had obviously been thoroughly cleaned up and polished, but there were a few bits and pieces of minor damage/missing trim around it - and they frankly weren't really noticeable until I looked closely.

They weren't letting anyone inside it (apparently because of all the bare wires - though I wonder if it was more to keep people away from the plasticy prototype interior), but I was impressed from the outside.

I'm not a prospective customer, sadly - but it is the only modern car I've looked at and thought if I had the money I genuinely would buy one. 

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Probably a fair assessment of where Land Rover currently sits and how the Grenadier compares.  Very strange that they take the nasty 4Runner seriously though.  Shocking suspension and it needs electronics to make it work too!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Rather snarky article on the Guardian website, (and presumably in the Observer), https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/09/losses-double-at-sir-jim-ratcliffe-ineos-automotive-supply-chain. Making a loss seems to be quite likely when the vehicle is not on retail sale. As for the huge cost; that really is inevitable when there are such large hurdles to clear for compliance worldwide.

"Sir Jim Ratcliffe’s drive to make a rival to the Land Rover Defender has racked up steep losses amid difficulty sourcing parts because of global supply chain disruption.

Pre-tax losses at Ineos Automotive, a subsidiary of the billionaire’s chemicals conglomerate, doubled to €212m (£186m) last year, accounts filed with Companies House show. It has run up total losses of €506m since its inception in 2017, and last year received a loan of €944m from its parent company, on top of €471m in 2020. It plans to repay the loan from future revenues from the off-road vehicle."

It goes on a lot longer, but I struggled to get much in the way of interest out of it.

In other news, I spoke to my local dealer, (Chandlers of Belton), who tell me their database suggests a December build date for my Grenadier, i.e. later than previously notified. Time to stick the cash in a 30 day notice deposit account.

Edited by jeremy996
Dealer conversation update
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Our mainstream media also seems to enjoy promoting mischievous, destabilising press releases.  I assume controversy sells better than facts?  How on earth could the Grenadier be running at anything but a large loss, given the only real income has been a decent number of small deposits from eager customers?

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