FridgeFreezer Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Well they certainly talk big, should go down well with the American "heavy dooty" market if not the refined Europeans... Quote These days most 4X4 manufacturers choose a unibody structure. But we’re not most manufacturers. We’re INEOS, and we go our own way… Our team of expert engineers has chosen a box-section ladder frame. A ladder frame is rugged. It’s strong. And nothing tackles the toughest off-road terrain better. When you’re building the ultimate 4X4, it’s the right choice. It’s highly rigid, so there’s no flex off road when the axles articulate. It has the weight low down for added stability and well-balanced load distribution, and it offers excellent towing capability. And where a unibody-based vehicle could become undriveable if it hit a mound, tree or rock, the Grenadier’s tough ladder frame means it shall be just fine. Beam axles get the job done. When it comes to off-road performance beam axles can’t be beaten. High ground clearance. Excellent traction. Better ride in harsh terrain. And they have fewer parts and joints for wear and failure. Fitted front and rear for even greater articulation and strength, and added durability when dealing with heavy loads. ineos.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Trailer for the next episode : suspension https://ineosgrenadier.com/suspension-trailer?utm_source=Salesforce&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=april_newsletter&utm_source=&utm_medium=&utm_campaign= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 4 link with panhard. Front "highish" steer. Swivel balls. Most likely Toyota wheel pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Anderzander said: Trailer for the next episode : suspension Given how much stick Land Rover got in the other thread for their "teasers" perhaps we need some here too. Either show us the stuff or STFU I say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Well if we are in that mode - I’m not keen on Mark Evans .... I liked his ‘is born’ programmes, but not his presenting. Something flat and contrived in his delivery - like in the Aluminium E-Type documentary and here ... sort of wooden... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Agree FF, the coming soon stuff is cr8p. The supported by Belstaff concerns me too. Hopefully it doesn’t turn out too influenced by the Instagram brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, Anderzander said: Well if we are in that mode - I’m not keen on Mark Evans .... I liked his ‘is born’ programmes, but not his presenting. Something flat and contrived in his delivery - like in the Aluminium E-Type documentary and here ... sort of wooden... I think he's very much on the corporate coin when he's presenting some of these things and gives a less enthusiastic performance - the e-Type thing smacked strongly of being bought & paid for by JLR's PR department and kept just about interesting enough to be sold as a TV programme giving them some very sweet worldwide PR for probably not a lot of money. Bit like the new aircraft carrier documentary - very interesting, but absolutely clearly bought & paid for by the Navy / Govt as some good PR to instil national pride in the vastly over-budget things. The camera crew wouldn't have been allowed within a mile of it otherwise! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said: I think he's very much on the corporate coin when he's presenting some of these things and gives a less enthusiastic performance - the e-Type thing smacked strongly of being bought & paid for by JLR's PR department and kept just about interesting enough to be sold as a TV programme giving them some very sweet worldwide PR for probably not a lot of money. Bit like the new aircraft carrier documentary - very interesting, but absolutely clearly bought & paid for by the Navy / Govt as some good PR to instil national pride in the vastly over-budget things. The camera crew wouldn't have been allowed within a mile of it otherwise! I spent about 40mins chatting to him at LR Legends the other year about one of the Jag ones (and everything else). He couldn't have been more enthusiastic about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Red90 said: 4 link with panhard. Front "highish" steer. Swivel balls. Most likely Toyota wheel pattern. Great screengrab! My thoughts on it: The two piece antiroll bar is interesting, I wonder if there's a disconnect not shown in the view? We'd like that. The placement of the steering damper is awful, hanging well below the axle centreline but interesting geometry how it connects directly from the axle housing to the track rod, presumably to eliminate death wobble? I don't like that we can't see pinch bolts or clamps on the track rod ends so wonder if the track rod ends are replaceable or crimped on as part of the track rod? They're very difficult to adjust when they get a bend in them, in fact, bent track rods like that are a pain in the ass to set the tracking on at the best of times, let alone in field conditions when you've just hit something. The LH track rod looks like an expensive to repair /replace part. I guess that the low placement of the nice large looking P38esq steering box implies quite a lot of vertical wheel travel could be possible and with very little bump steer from the long links. The Panhard rod is quite low, as will be the roll centre. Interesting choice as the journalists are surely going to criticise the resulting roll in fast cornering. I like the steering guard mountings that might also serve as winch mounts but the long rear ones look a bit weedy. No substantial front crossmember has been visible in any of the renderings thus far, that's a worry. large 4 bolt king pins and large robust looking swivels seem promising, maybe, just maybe they actually put some decent sized CV's in there? Interesting that the publicly released footage of the steering on a 'UK built' vehicle is LHD. I think they shouldn't push the UK angle anyway, I bet more people will buy it if they think it's German. Using the 6 stud Japanese wheel pattern makes so much sense. The Land Rover one is too far gone now to be useful to anyone. I think the parallel 4 link is a bold choice, fair play to them. Large rubber bushes there should be very durable and give decent flex compared to radius arms. Looks like the brakes go over the hub flange, yay for an easy maintenance component at last. I wonder if it's unit hubs and bearings (boo). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Rear axle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Is the anti roll bar two piece? It looks to me like bad colouring in! The steering shaft above it is also two colours but there's no visible/reason for a joint there. Perhaps I'm wrong. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 I wonder if it’s just a way of coding the movement on the parts for the animation, rather than twisting a single “part”, to have two bars butted end to end that can slip in relation to each other purely for animation purposes. Seems unusual for the drag link and panhard rod to be secured to the chassis end and axle end on opposite sides to each other. I’m no suspension expert, but isn’t that going to increase bump steer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesBrooks Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 On 3/20/2020 at 11:58 AM, FridgeFreezer said: And nothing tackles the toughest off-road terrain better. I'm a relative noddy in these circles so if I can spot bs that easily it's not a great start. Project may be a valid and interesting exercise but the marketing/pr has got my back up already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 Just let it flow over you @WesBrooks, and concentrate on the technical stuff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesBrooks Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 ...catching up slowly, I've been away for a few months! I was thinking a modular style of chassis would have been best. Avoiding a stressed skin monocoque design is fair enough for something that is liable to be bounced about, but ladder seems odd for a new venture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Snagger said: Seems unusual for the drag link and panhard rod to be secured to the chassis end and axle end on opposite sides to each other. I’m no suspension expert, but isn’t that going to increase bump steer? It isn't. The right side is the chassis connection. At same height as pitman arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerboa Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 What's the consensus on sourcing engines from BMW in the power-train? 20+ years ago this would have been a good thing, the engines they used to make were capable of high mileage and strong performance. Now though... There's a sort of cult understanding that BMW engines are not made for the long haul, just google it. I'll put it like this. Remeber that BMW is/used to be regarded as a premium qulioty brand? When they partnered up with Toyota to produce R&D the new Z4/Supra, much development was shared in terms of chassis, suspension, etc. It was agreed between the two manufacturers that they would use BMW's current 3.0L inline Six turbo-charged engine. Fine said Toyota, but we're going to make some revisions to the engine for use in the Supra. Toyota TOTALLY revised almost everything about the engine, except the block, head and only a handful of other bits. It says a lot about the poor quality of BMW engines that Touyota had to do that - even Toyota engines are not what they used to be! Perhaps IVECO for a diesel? This is a utility vehicle, we don't need the last word in refinement. Just rugged, torquey durability. Just my 2p... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Twenty years ago BMW started producing carp engines ( cost engineered designed obsolescence). I've not seen anything to suggest that they've gone back to engineered for longevity and reliability standards. Who makes decent engines? Or engines that could be made good with little work, replace plastic manifolds with heavy ally castings, that sort of thing? Volvo? Landrover?! Isuzu? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 12 hours ago, Red90 said: It isn't. The right side is the chassis connection. At same height as pitman arm. Oh. The screen grab looked to me like a LHD vehicle with the steering box on the right of the image, drag link connecting to the swivel on the left of the image, and I thought the panhard rod was in pale blue attached to the chassis on the left of the image (opposite the steering box) and attached to the axle outboard of the diff housing on the right side of the image (a bit messed up with the steering damper in the same colour). Another look and I think I can see what looks like a vertical tubular arm for the panhard rod to attach to behind the steering box. Not easy to see all the details on a still shot, but probably clearer in the animation. In which case, no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesBrooks Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, jerboa said: What's the consensus on sourcing engines from BMW in the power-train? I'm puzzled by IC engines being forefront in any measure. What is the target/guestimate release date? This article reports the petrol/diesel/hybrid/plug-in-hybrid ban as 2035. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40726868 So there is a lot of effort being put into incorporating a power source that has an imminent and significant obsolete warning on it. Yeah, batteries aren't great yet but I'd continue the design for maintenance theme around removable and easily replaceable batteries. Would anyone think this will be for sale any sooner than 2025? Fair enough there's ten years of sales there... Edit: Guess this obsolete warning is for EU/UK markets and may not be similar for the majority of international markets. Edited April 18, 2020 by WesBrooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesBrooks Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) I'm going to catch up on the presentations as I'd love to find a way to contribute somehow. While the marketing grates on my nerves the preaented technical detail is very interesting. Edit: Marketing and sales normally grates to be fair. That's just me, nothing specific to these guys, I'm just not much of a sales guy! Bit of a current issue while networking for.my work! 😄 Edited April 18, 2020 by WesBrooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted April 18, 2020 Author Share Posted April 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, WesBrooks said: Edit: Marketing and sales normally grates to be fair. That's just me, nothing specific to these guys, I'm just not much of a sales guy! Bit of a current issue while networking for.my work! 😄 Understood totally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesBrooks Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 1 hour ago, WesBrooks said: What is the target/guestimate release date? I'll answer my own question after catching up. 2021. Seriously shifting! I'll be impressed if this makes it to market at entry level for the £30k - the lower end of the range that's been floated on some of the links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerboa Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 2 hours ago, WesBrooks said: Edit: Guess this obsolete warning is for EU/UK markets and may not be similar for the majority of international markets. That's what I'm guessing too. The export market will continue be valuable for a tough, durable machinery. Monocoque bodies, independent suspension, lithium batteries etc. will of course last their time, but you won't see them trundling up and down bumpy back roads in the Hulu 20+ years after they've been sold off by the NGO's that bought them. The other, big element is the charging infrastructure required for electric vehicles in under developed regions. These aren't going to appear over night, not even in ten years in place which are looking at small, cheap off-grid energy systems rather that rolling out massive electrical grids across entire countries. I'll be interested to see what they produce. But an earlier poster commented that at sub-£20K new, a isuzu pickup, with a proven drivetrain could be the ticket for many - both here and abroad. They will have their work cut out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesBrooks Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Thoughts divert to a mill-style header pond and water wheel charging point... 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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