Thoughts and Musings on the Ineos Grenadier

[deep]

13 hours ago, Snagger said:

 

Almost every question on these forums and others relating to death wobble involves a vehicle with oversized and very heavy wheels and tyres.  That spinning mass has a huge effect, much more than the suspension parts or choice of live beam versus independent suspension, on how the vehicle responds to the road.  Think of those gyroscopic forces and how increased mass and increased radius exponentially increases them.  Fit oversize wheels to a vehicle with independent suspension, add a little wear and take out the steering damper and I’m sure you’ll find nasty effects there too.

 

Exactly.  I had one car which was very prone to it.  I replaced the (slightly) oversize tyres with standard ones and the problem vanished.   That shouldn't be surprising, as the problem arises from a resonance which changes in line with changes in mass of rotating parts and the location of that mass.

[paime]

34 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Face it, most LR owners wouldn't notice if you replaced all the bushes with soft cheese and unbolted the dampers entirely, they're usually just happy the damn thing's working today and that the MOT man didn't see the cardboard and bathroom sealant "welded patch" on the chassis.

Number of cars you see driving along with one almost-flat tyre and no-one notices that, I think finer subtleties of handling are lost on most of the population.

This is 100% true! I think the vast majority of defenders on the road will have knackered bushes and leaking shocks (mine included) and the owners are just enjoying being behind the wheel or their beloveds. 

[miketomcat]

It's not until I drive or at least passenger in someone else's shiny defender. That I realize my dented and scratched creation isn't as bad as I think it is. I have been truly shocked at how bad others are and still have an MOT.

Mike

[geoffbeaumont]

13 hours ago, deep said:

Exactly.  I had one car which was very prone to it.  I replaced the (slightly) oversize tyres with standard ones and the problem vanished.   That shouldn't be surprising, as the problem arises from a resonance which changes in line with changes in mass of rotating parts and the location of that mass.

Of course part of the problem with large tires isn't just the inherent increase in unsprung and rotational mass - it's also that unless you re-tune the suspension and damping you've massively changed from the resonances the factory set up was designed to suppress...

[FridgeFreezer]

4 hours ago, miketomcat said:

It's not until I drive or at least passenger in someone else's shiny defender. That I realize my dented and scratched creation isn't as bad as I think it is. I have been truly shocked at how bad others are and still have an MOT.

I think we all know a few owners who will buy £250 worth of lights and stickers and be driving around with bits hanging off

[Snagger]

15 hours ago, paime said:

This is 100% true! I think the vast majority of defenders on the road will have knackered bushes and leaking shocks (mine included) and the owners are just enjoying being behind the wheel or their beloveds. 

And isn’t that another interesting aspect about Defenders (real) and the predecessors?  That even when faulty and misbehaving, they are still endearing and almost seem alive?  For all the clever trickery of Discovery 5 and Sport, Range Rover Sport and Evoke, do their owners have any real connection to their car, and are their flaws and faults, when they invariably occur, part of their character or just a really expensive and oft crippling nuisance?  I suspect the latter, and the Pretender will be just like them in that respect, not only unable to continue operating with mild to moderate defects, but becoming hated and loathsome instead of seen as a quirk and lovingly repaired.

[paime]

54 minutes ago, Snagger said:

And isn’t that another interesting aspect about Defenders (real) and the predecessors?  That even when faulty and misbehaving, they are still endearing and almost seem alive?  For all the clever trickery of Discovery 5 and Sport, Range Rover Sport and Evoke, do their owners have any real connection to their car, and are their flaws and faults, when they invariably occur, part of their character or just a really expensive and oft crippling nuisance?  I suspect the latter, and the Pretender will be just like them in that respect, not only unable to continue operating with mild to moderate defects, but becoming hated and loathsome instead of seen as a quirk and lovingly repaired.

Couldn't agree more and i'm hoping the new Granadier follows the Defender route rather than the Pretender route. Consider the variety of subjects on this very forum, do you think the Pretender will every have that sort of passionate ownership? I suspect any forum related to them will be full of complaints about dealers and queries about the extents of warranties. I'm hoping the Granadier will be as infinitely customisable as Defenders which will lead to a strong following amongst communities such as ours.

[FridgeFreezer]

4 hours ago, Snagger said:

And isn’t that another interesting aspect about Defenders (real) and the predecessors?  That even when faulty and misbehaving, they are still endearing and almost seem alive?

Cars people love and cars which are actually good are two very different things - we all look back fondly at all sorts of old cars when we see restored examples at car shows etc. but people forget all the awful faults and reliability that are the reason people moved on in the first place.

95%+ of the market want something reliable and cheap to own that ferries them and their junk from A to B safely - aside from the few folks who were spending 50k+ on a new Defender at the end of production, all the other people that you bemoaned Land Rover had "deserted" are buying stuff based on cost-of-ownership - farmers, builders, police, etc. are buying utterly grey Jap pickups or Transits or even Dacias or quads to do the job because they're cheaper to own.

Give most people a week or two of commuting in a Defender in winter and they'll be begging for a Ford Focus with a working heater, wipers, door seals and a decent radio and bu&&er whether or not it's got any character.

[Snagger]

I think you are right to a point! John, that most drivers in winter will just want something warm and reliable, but cheap, because emits people have little interest in cars.  They’re unlikely to spend £75k on a Pretender or o have a classic vehicle of any type.  The “car people” will generally be in one of two camps - the more classic owners like us, who are as fault tolerant as their vehicles, and the wealthy trendy set who just want to be seen in something prestigious and trendy.  The sports drivers are a tiny number and will be a bit of a hybrid.  Pretender drivers will certainly be in the prestige group, few of them being genuine enthusiasts.

[paime]

@Snagger you raise an interesting point. Are our vehicles considered classics (even the later 2.4/2.2 variants) and therefore we're always going to be happy pottering around in them, dealing with maintenance and repairs as necessary? I.e. it's unfair to compare Defenders to Pretenders because they are such vastly different vehicles that will have vastly different owner profiles? 

Edited May 15, 2020 by paime

[FridgeFreezer]

The thing is it's very hard to sell a "new classic" because no-one can know ahead of time that a car will become a beloved classic - and let's face it, a lot of the classics out there are absolute junk to own and drive and were considered utter carp by the motoring press of the day. Face it, 90% of the moaners on these threads are driving Defenders because they're too soft to drive a proper Series

Mate of mine happened across a mint Triumph Spitfire at a bargain price, bought it as a summer toy, drove it a few times and realised that although it looked cool, it was all awful British Leyland cack underneath and was basically horrible - tarted it up and flogged it quick while the sun was shining!

LR have to sell the new one on actually being what people want, not in the hope it'll be looked upon fondly in 20+ years time.

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, paime said:

@Snagger you raise an interesting point. Are our vehicles considered classics (even the later 2.4/2.2 variants) and therefore we're always going to be happy pottering around in them, dealing with maintenance and repairs as necessary? I.e. it's unfair to compare Defenders to Pretenders because they are such vastly different vehicles that will have vastly different owner profiles? 

I think they generally are, already - the lineage and similarities to early 90s and 110s are strong enough that they were instant classics.  Not to the same extent as Series vehicles and the early coiler, yet, but still classic.

[deep]

11 hours ago, paime said:

@Snagger you raise an interesting point. Are our vehicles considered classics (even the later 2.4/2.2 variants) and therefore we're always going to be happy pottering around in them, dealing with maintenance and repairs as necessary? I.e. it's unfair to compare Defenders to Pretenders because they are such vastly different vehicles that will have vastly different owner profiles? 

And yet I think of the Pumas in much the same way I think of the new Defender - horrendously and unnecessarily complicated!  They just squeezed too much into the Puma and lost important features (like air vents, cab space and durability).  But, as FridgeFreezer pointed out above, I'm far too soft to comment, since I sold my Series and now drive around in a poofy, coil-sprung, disc-braked 110...

Are we seriously off topic?  Maybe not.  

[paime]

So, in an attempt to link this together somehow, are we saying that the new grenadier needs to be closer to the 300tdi and if they aim for something comparable with pumas we'll all be very unhappy indeed? How much fancyness is going to be too much for us?

[Bowie69]

Fancy doesn't matter, as long as the rest remains practical.

[Snagger]

12 hours ago, deep said:

And yet I think of the Pumas in much the same way I think of the new Defender - horrendously and unnecessarily complicated!  They just squeezed too much into the Puma and lost important features (like air vents, cab space and durability).  But, as FridgeFreezer pointed out above, I'm far too soft to comment, since I sold my Series and now drive around in a poofy, coil-sprung, disc-braked 110...

Are we seriously off topic?  Maybe not.  

My wife had a Puma.  I wasn’t very fond of it and prefer the pre 2002 dash, but I could tackle a lot of tasks on it, just not anything electronic.  The dash was harder to work inside of than the old models, but it just took more thought on how to disassemble - it’s still relatively rudemenatary.  But the bulk of the car was largely the same - the chassis, body, interior, steering, suspension, transmission, all fundamentally the same.  It was only the engine management, ABS system and anti theft devices that could cause head aches, and even then, the ABS was done in a way that left replacement of master cylinder, servo, callipers or other parts very easy. I don’t think it changed it’s character all that much, though, just lost a couple of key features like the dash vent flaps and bonnet spare wheel option.

[Snagger]

12 hours ago, paime said:

So, in an attempt to link this together somehow, are we saying that the new grenadier needs to be closer to the 300tdi and if they aim for something comparable with pumas we'll all be very unhappy indeed? How much fancyness is going to be too much for us?

I think for the Western world, that is roughly what they’ll have to do for emissions regulations.  For third world, I’d  expect something more akin to ROW Defenders.  But I think they will ensure the more ECU-blighted versions are made easy to work on, so they can achieve the dependability that working vehicles need, and hopefully with backups and bypasses that allow continued operation with failed sensors or ECUs to allow the vehicle to work until it can be repaired where specialist work is required.

[paime]

31 minutes ago, Snagger said:

 backups and bypasses that allow continued operation with failed sensors or ECUs to allow the vehicle to work until it can be repaired where specialist work is required.

This is key imho, limp home mode is massively overused in modern vehicles and is far too easy to trigger. It should be up to me as the driver if I choose to push on even though there's a fault somewhere, not an ECU.

[Snagger]

I’d prefer any main system electronics to be for fine tuning and optimisation, but to be non-essential.  Vehicles used for military, emergency services, working fleets and overlanding need to be fault tolerant and easy to repair in the field.

[Gazzar]

I think the suspension is too complex. 4 leaf springs, 4 shocks and a track rod should do the job well enough.

[FridgeFreezer]

On 5/16/2020 at 10:45 AM, paime said:

This is key imho, limp home mode is massively overused in modern vehicles and is far too easy to trigger. It should be up to me as the driver if I choose to push on even though there's a fault somewhere, not an ECU.

The problem is most of the public are f***ing idiots who will drive around with the oil light on, or the temp gauge off the scale, and then claim on warranty or shout at a the dealers (and in the US, sue them).

Also they get hammered by the regulators if the vehicle can get itself into a state of causing more pollution than it should - so the easy solution to all those things is to make vehicles very "self-preserving" with a lot of falling back to limp-home mode.

Same story with driver aids - most people are idiots so you get the most benefit / least grief from adding aids that try and stop you from doing anything stupid, or from dying too badly when you do. Look at the huge fuss back in the day when SUV's started getting popular and people (CoughAmericansCough) kept rolling them over because they didn't understand you can't fling it about like a Ford Focus... and now ESC and ABS is mandatory on everything.

[Anderzander]

New video: 

 

[Snagger]

It’s hard to see much in that photo, but from what I could see, it looks mor elite a real Defender than LR’s POS.

[Anderzander]

If this thing turned out to be kick ass - would anyone here consider buying one ? 

[Snagger]

Yes, if I had the money.  I’d never consider a Pretender or any independent suspension LR.