shredded new timing belt 300tdi

[Dave Lock]

Hi, I just replaced the timing belt on my 1997 defender, and the belt shreaded after about 30 miles. The back portion of the belt is still there but I suspect the cam and crank is out of sink as is the injector pump. Can anyone shed light on the break please perhaps the tension was too high?

Thanks, Dave.

[steve b]

Welcome to the forum

Is there any evidence of the belt creeping forward and rubbing the front cover ?

There were issues with belt alignment early on in 300 Tdi production . Did you change it as normal service and how was the old one ?

Unlikely over tension would kill it in 30 miles , can you post up a few pic's of it all ?

cheers

Steve b

[Dave Lock]

Hi Steve, Thanks for getting back. After a closer look, I can see a scuff mark on the timing case (marked her on the picture) so that seams the culprit. Perhaps the idler pulley was rubbing the outer casing. The other marks are from previous owners. The crank pulley is the lipped variety, so it may have not marched off here, but maybe elsewhere - from the idler. I will get the present new tensioner and idler off the vehicle and compare - perhaps it was not sitting properly? Also, the furthest rod is jammed into the head. Do you know if these clear the engine block when through to the cam? It looks like i may have to take the head off to get the bent rod out. All the rods were bent, and the rocker was broken. Happy days.

[Snagger]

Britannica Restorations did a YouTube video about a 300 Tdi with persistent problems despite having the updated sprockets.  It transpired to be a warped timing casing putting the fuel pump out of line, it’s back end too far from the block, throwing the belt forward.  You should be able to check for that with a straight edge against the edge of the casing.

[steve b]

Mmm , that circular scuffing is the idler wheel , that's definitely not right and would be the prime culprit .

Also worth checking for end float on the FIP pulley/shaft and the cam wheel too .

Bent pushrods will come out with some effort and something like a claw hammer type nail puller , appropriate surface protection in place obviously

Once out you should be able to see the brass slider in the tappet sleeve to check for cracking .

Once the new belt is on I would be inclined to put the pulley on without the cover , put the drive belt on and run it for a few minutes open to see if anything is going on still , again due care and safe working .

cheers

Steve b

[Snagger]

I suspect the idler backplate is bent, so it could be that simple to replace.

[Maverik]

Where did you get the belt and pulley parts from? did you actually change the idler and tensioner?

[Dave Lock]

Hi Maverik, I bought the kit off Ebay a shop/supplier called Randc, which seam to sell a lot of Landy parts.

 

55 minutes ago, steve b said:

Mmm , that circular scuffing is the idler wheel , that's definitely not right and would be the prime culprit .

Also worth checking for end float on the FIP pulley/shaft and the cam wheel too .

Bent pushrods will come out with some effort and something like a claw hammer type nail puller , appropriate surface protection in place obviously

Once out you should be able to see the brass slider in the tappet sleeve to check for cracking .

Once the new belt is on I would be inclined to put the pulley on without the cover , put the drive belt on and run it for a few minutes open to see if anything is going on still , again due care and safe working .

cheers

Steve b

Yes I remember now that the idler/tensioner were a little proud and the belt did not seam to sit towards the edge of the pulleys her as they look in the various videos on you tube. I am not sure how much effort to put in to get the last bent rod out, but as you explain, a claw hammer could do the job. If so, it would save me a lot of work in having not to remove the head. All the other brass sliders look ok though.

 

50 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I suspect the idler backplate is bent, so it could be that simple to replace.

Hi Snagger, I will compare with the old one to see if it is bent.

 

59 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Britannica Restorations did a YouTube video about a 300 Tdi with persistent problems despite having the updated sprockets.  It transpired to be a warped timing casing putting the fuel pump out of line, it’s back end too far from the block, throwing the belt forward.  You should be able to check for that with a straight edge against the edge of the casing.

Yes Snagger, I have seen the video, and there could be mileage in it. I would not have attempted the belt change if it wasn't Lockdown, as I have been using the land Rover now for 3 years, without much trouble.

[tweetyduck]

if i recall its very easy to tighten that pully nut onto the stud and not have the pully sit in the right place. The lip on the back of the idler needs to fit in the hole on the plate on the tensioner. Looks like you have it askew to me. 

 

 

 

[tweetyduck]

there are two types of Tensioner depending on engine also.....just a note....but i think the new one is compatable.

[oneandtwo]

Also worth fitting the revised injector pump mounting bracket if not already fitted.

[Dave Lock]

On 7/9/2020 at 6:01 PM, steve b said:

Mmm , that circular scuffing is the idler wheel , that's definitely not right and would be the prime culprit .

Also worth checking for end float on the FIP pulley/shaft and the cam wheel too .

Bent pushrods will come out with some effort and something like a claw hammer type nail puller , appropriate surface protection in place obviously

Once out you should be able to see the brass slider in the tappet sleeve to check for cracking .

Once the new belt is on I would be inclined to put the pulley on without the cover , put the drive belt on and run it for a few minutes open to see if anything is going on still , again due care and safe working .

cheers

Steve b

Hi Steve, I wonder if you could cast light on a niggle for me? I am waiting for parts to get my 300tdi up and running again - I managed to get the stuck rod out of the engine with a claw hammer - thanks for that. I have ordered a new crank seal , but have discovered that there is an o ring that goes somewhere. Does this go between the crank pulley and the crank seal? It looks the same diameter as the crank. The pulley by the way had also come to pieces in the mayhem of the belt break, or it could have been the problem. The o ring is mentioned in a blog where another guy replaces his belt https://www.mud-club.com/index.php?topic=65553.0.  Thanks for your help, Dave.

[Snagger]

The idler backplate just needs checking against a flat surface or a straight edge to make sure it isn’t bowed or bent.  It could be caught on a lip on the timing case, like Duck suggested.  You don’t necessarily need a replacement, but you do need to check it.  However, even the slightest play in the bearings could cause the pulleys to run out of true, so you need to very carefully check that.  A lot of people neglect to replace the idlers on belt services, and while it might be ok to do that once if the engine isn’t worked hard, it certainly isn’t good to miss it twice.

[steve b]

The O ring goes behind the timing pulley on the crank .

I suspect the pulley separated because of the idler being misaligned  . ^^ as Nick says , if you are not putting a complete kit on , the backplate should be checked . It should be ok as the idler was on top of it on one side - there may be some marks from this to dress off .

let us know how it goes

Steve

[Dave Lock]

Thanks Steve, I will let you know how it goes. Cheers, Dave.

[Dave Lock]

On 7/15/2020 at 11:30 AM, Dave Lock said:

Thanks Steve, I will let you know how it goes. Cheers, Dave.

Hi Steve, Just put the landy back together and all seems fine. New rods and part of the rocker assembly care of Ebay. I ran it for an hour then took the timing cover off and the belt looks ok. On closer inspection I found that the belt guide on the back of the timing pulley had come apart (picture attached). Whether this was part of the problem, or the belt shredding caused it I don't know. Anyhow, thanks for your help and input it made the difference. I also bought the wrong timing pin for the Flywheel - I returned it as it fitted the automatic variety. Found out on an internet article that the R380 reverse switch fits perfectly. Thanks again, Dave.

[Dave Lock]

On 7/9/2020 at 2:44 PM, steve b said:

Welcome to the forum

Is there any evidence of the belt creeping forward and rubbing the front cover ?

There were issues with belt alignment early on in 300 Tdi production . Did you change it as normal service and how was the old one ?

Unlikely over tension would kill it in 30 miles , can you post up a few pic's of it all ?

cheers

Steve b

Hi Steve Just put a reply on the main forum - hope you can see it. Cheers, Dave.

[cackshifter]

The Bearmach pulleys have that guide cast in.

As a matter of interest does anyone know why you change them routinely? Yes I know the guide was added originally when all the timing belt problems were going on, but does the pulley really need changing with the belt? And if it does why are the cam and FIP pulleys OK?

[steve b]

3 hours ago, cackshifter said:

The Bearmach pulleys have that guide cast in.

As a matter of interest does anyone know why you change them routinely? Yes I know the guide was added originally when all the timing belt problems were going on, but does the pulley really need changing with the belt? And if it does why are the cam and FIP pulleys OK?

I think that was when the only type was the spotwelded flange in Dave's pic. If the cast type is present then I leave them as is .

Great to hear it's sorted Dave 

cheers

Steve

[Maverik]

I generally replace all the running components, they do wear and even if it's not totally obvious, if you then pop a new belt with new profile on a worn gear, it will accelerate the wear on the new belt. You have to remeber it's the smallest pulley in the system so will have the most revolutions compared to the bigger timing gears. For the time and effort invested in doing the change in the first place its heartbreaking to have to haul it all out again before you should have too.

[Dave Lock]

On 7/22/2020 at 2:03 PM, cackshifter said:

The Bearmach pulleys have that guide cast in.

As a matter of interest does anyone know why you change them routinely? Yes I know the guide was added originally when all the timing belt problems were going on, but does the pulley really need changing with the belt? And if it does why are the cam and FIP pulleys OK?

Hi Yes I could see that, which was good. I bought the kit as a whole with the pulley, because I didn,t know if the mod had been carried out. As you say, I did not initially change it because it seemed to have been done. It had, but with an inferior part? Thanks, Dave.

[Dave Lock]

On 7/22/2020 at 5:51 PM, steve b said:

I think that was when the only type was the spotwelded flange in Dave's pic. If the cast type is present then I leave them as is .

Great to hear it's sorted Dave 

cheers

Steve

Thanks again, Steve.

[Edik]

Hello friends !  I faced this problem too😟 now I think how to solve it🤔