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Mo Murphy

Any other new 4 wheel drives in the pipeline ?

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So, in the light of Steve's post regarding the new Ford Bronco, are there any other 4 wheel drives in the pipeline that the new Pretender will have to compete with ?

Mo

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I don't think the Wrangler, no matter the engine, is really a competitor to the Pretender. And with the likes of the Bronco now. It just reinforces the view. I think the natural competitor to the Pretender will be the Discovery and Range Rover Sports..... erm maybe a flaw in JLR's model line up.

And other road biased SUVs. I know the Pretender can actually go on the rough stuff, but it doesn't look like it can and certainly doesn't have the styling or appeal to match that kind of lifestyle. Be it a work truck like the pickups/Land Cruise/Grenadier or the lifestyle recreational vehicles like the Jimny, Bronco, Wrangler and the Raptors.

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What about the Rivian? Thats all gone a bit quiet?

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Well, I saw a rumour that the jimny is scheduled for cancellation. Emissions for the Suzuki group are too high.

It might reappear as a commercial.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Well, I saw a rumour that the jimny is scheduled for cancellation. Emissions for the Suzuki group are too high.

It might reappear as a commercial.

The Jimny is no longer on the UK Suzuki website. And while the UK site also says production has stopped, it isn't true. Production for the rest of the world continues.

I'm not saying emissions aren't part of the problem. But I can't get it to add up in my head.

Suzuki sell mostly low Co2 cars and the Jimny is also pretty low too. How can they not be able to sell something that makes 154g/km Co2 when most other car companies sell cars that put out 230-300g/km?

I suspect there is more going on than meets the eye.

 

Interesting, 2018 and 2019 are the lowest Jimny sales in Europe since 1999. And by quite a margin, about 50% down in 2018. Clearly with massive waiting lists this is not a lack of demand. I think it is more about a lack of supply. In almost every market the Jimny is sold into there are huge waiting lists. I think Suzuki have been caught with their trousers down a little. So for them it probably makes more sense to direct the EU allocation to other markets. Especially if it has the benefit of them not needing to worry about emissions in these other markets.

Edited by Chicken Drumstick

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What happened to the Bollinger electric vehicle? 

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Ford bought into Rivian, so they have plenty of cash, and the Bolingbrook is still on track I think.  The media are fickle and are easily distracted by things like the Pretender, so the others just haven’t been featured as much recently as there hasn’t been much new to say about them.  That said, they may just have slowed development and launch because of the Covid problem - keeping workers separated slows development, and the customer base has shrunk because elf the economic damage, so they may be waiting for the financial recovery before putting them on sale.

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What about the Nikola Badger?

https://nikolamotor.com/badger

Battery/Fuel-cell hybrid, 8000-pound towing-capacity, 0-60 in 2.9 seconds....

 

Shame they called it the Badger though.  I guess it's partly because US Badgers are feisty vicious beasts, whereas UK Badgers are slow bumbling worm-eaters who live in holes in the ground.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Tanuki said:

Shame they called it the Badger though.  I guess it's partly because US Badgers are feisty vicious beasts, whereas UK Badgers are slow bumbling worm-eaters who live in holes in the ground.

 

Apart from when they are trying to bite your ankles...

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6 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Suzuki sell mostly low Co2 cars and the Jimny is also pretty low too. How can they not be able to sell something that makes 154g/km Co2 when most other car companies sell cars that put out 230-300g/km?

I suspect there is more going on than meets the eye.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the CO2 targets are somehow linked to vehicle size, so building a fatter/heavier 4x4-ed-up car means it can get away with higher emissions.

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7 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that the CO2 targets are somehow linked to vehicle size, so building a fatter/heavier 4x4-ed-up car means it can get away with higher emissions.

I've heard this too, although quite how that works with the fleet average target of 95g/km I'm unsure.

That aside, the MX-5 weighs about the same as a Jimny and puts out about the same Co2 and the Toyota GT86, also very similar weight puts out quite a bit more. Likewise a Fiesta ST (also similar weight) puts out about the same as the Jimny also. I suspect most quick compact hatchbacks must be in the same ballpark of weight and emissions.

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3 hours ago, landroversforever said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that the CO2 targets are somehow linked to vehicle size, so building a fatter/heavier 4x4-ed-up car means it can get away with higher emissions.

That is insanity.... Build small, efficient cars and get penalized. Only in the UK.

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The CO2 targets are based on average fleet, (i.e. across the manufacturer's range), with a fixed % improvement each period. Suzuki's problem is their range isn't wide enough and the volume is low. Suzuki just don't have a proper gas guzzler to give them a bit of wiggle room!

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9 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

The CO2 targets are based on average fleet, (i.e. across the manufacturer's range), with a fixed % improvement each period. Suzuki's problem is their range isn't wide enough and the volume is low. Suzuki just don't have a proper gas guzzler to give them a bit of wiggle room!

Surely that would still give you a lower average though??? How is the maths worked out on it?

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10 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Surely that would still give you a lower average though??? How is the maths worked out on it?

Pulled from AutoExpress

"Earlier this year, Suzuki said the Jimny would remain on sale in “very limited numbers” during 2020 and that the car would be pulled from the market in 2021. However, this date has been pulled forward, following the EU ruling that all car makers must ensure their vehicles emit no more than 95g/km of CO2, as an average across their fleet.

Exemptions exist for low-volume manufacturers and there are concessions such as super credits, which reward brands for selling pure electric cars. Car makers that produce heavier vehicles are also allowed to have higher fleet average emissions than those that produce light cars. 

As a manufacturer of small cars and with no pure electric vehicles in its portfolio, Suzuki has few immediate options other than to cull the Jimny. 

The Jimny’s relatively high CO2 emissions of between 154 and 170g/km, coupled with its low mass of 1,135kg, mean it's the latest car to fall foul of the regulations. This trend is one that also threatens Europe’s small-car market as a whole. The future of city cars looks increasingly shaky as firms struggle to balance high emissions and low kerb weights against the disproportionately expensive development costs and low profit margins of small cars."

Suzuki have no heavy vehicles with concessions and no pure EVs. Their small cars can still be 'highish' CO2 producers as they have more small cars with 4WD than other manufactures.

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Thanks. I still struggle to visualise how the maths would work. I still think it is more an excuse than reason. 
 

Total UK Jimny sales are not that high and probably a smaller part of total Suzuki UK sales. I assume fleet average is based on volume. Not number of models in the lineup?

How do Mazda, Subaru and others manage? Let alone the likes of Morgan, Aston Martin etc. 

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11 hours ago, Red90 said:

That is insanity.... Build small, efficient cars and get penalized. Only in the UK.

Not the UK, the EU.  That is the sort of backward thinking applied to everything that led to so much frustration and the 2016 result.  The reality is that the EU makes most of these rules as a protectionist measure to exclude external competition, or even to favour certain internal manufacturers over other member states’ businesses.  It’s entirely corrupt.

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Precisely, like 'dieselgate'..... 

"Fine them €7bn"

"OK"

"But then give it back to them as long as it all gets spent on EVs"

Yeah, that really penalised VW group. The EU are a protectionist institution, no question.

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10 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Thanks. I still struggle to visualise how the maths would work. I still think it is more an excuse than reason. 
 

Total UK Jimny sales are not that high and probably a smaller part of total Suzuki UK sales. I assume fleet average is based on volume. Not number of models in the lineup?

How do Mazda, Subaru and others manage? Let alone the likes of Morgan, Aston Martin etc. 

Their cars are generally a lot heavier and so are permitted more emissions, but as more desirable cars with bigger prices, the carbon taxes levied on the manufacturer are more easily passed on to the customer in the price tag.

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2 hours ago, Snagger said:

Not the UK, the EU.  That is the sort of backward thinking applied to everything that led to so much frustration and the 2016 result.  The reality is that the EU makes most of these rules as a protectionist measure to exclude external competition, or even to favour certain internal manufacturers over other member states’ businesses.  It’s entirely corrupt.

Utterly utterly corrupt !

Mo

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1 hour ago, Snagger said:

Their cars are generally a lot heavier and so are permitted more emissions, but as more desirable cars with bigger prices, the carbon taxes levied on the manufacturer are more easily passed on to the customer in the price tag.

What average do Mazda/Subaru have to meet?

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4 hours ago, Snagger said:

Not the UK, the EU.  That is the sort of backward thinking applied to everything that led to so much frustration and the 2016 result.  The reality is that the EU makes most of these rules as a protectionist measure to exclude external competition, or even to favour certain internal manufacturers over other member states’ businesses.  It’s entirely corrupt.

Nonsense.  The legislation is part funded in the open by the German government/taxpayer which is part funded by the German automotive unions.

Not corrupt at all, fully disclosed and democratically driven protectionism.

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23 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Thanks. I still struggle to visualise how the maths would work. I still think it is more an excuse than reason. 

Total UK Jimny sales are not that high and probably a smaller part of total Suzuki UK sales. I assume fleet average is based on volume. Not number of models in the lineup?

How do Mazda, Subaru and others manage? Let alone the likes of Morgan, Aston Martin etc. 

I had a bit of a dig, as I found your questions interesting, so:-

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCTupdate_EU-95gram_jan2014.pdf The best explanation I could find on how to calculate it, so based on sales volume across the fleet

For Suzuki, 95g/KM is a struggle, I couldn't find one of their cars that could make it, https://carfueldata.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx

Celerio 108, Ignis 127-132, Swift 124-130, Balano 136, SX4 142-148, Vitara 146, Jimny 198.

Now the Jimny getting the chop seems obvious; plenty of sales elsewhere and fines heading their way anyway. 

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