200TDI into LWB SIII 109 - fit or sh#t?

[Gazzar]

Have you read the guide by Richard Glencoyne? 

Pay attention to the oil filter housing of you remove the oil cooler.

I kept the series filter, but you need to remove the thermostat in the oil filter if you're removing your oil cooler.

[xychix]

7 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Have you read the guide by Richard Glencoyne? 

Pay attention to the oil filter housing of you remove the oil cooler.

I kept the series filter, but you need to remove the thermostat in the oil filter if you're removing your oil cooler.

yes, I've red half of the internet. Time to hover the engine inplace, make my own plan and write it down.... just to make even more reading for the next....

[xychix]

Found this on facebook, I'm confused.... 2.25? (given the manifolds and sensor placement) but a belt driven fuel pump???
or are we looking at a 2.5di? 

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10158532110798560&set=pcb.900672747083114

 

[steve b]

That's a 2.5 N/A Diesel - earlier 90/110 fitment . Indirect injection like the 2.25 . 

Steve

[Gazzar]

Interesting! I wonder if the Bosch injection pump can push CAV injectors? Or can Bosch injectors fit a 2286 head?

Of course you could put a 2495 diesel head on a 2286 block, with the 2495 timing chest. Or even the TDI fittings on the 2286 block.

 

[Snagger]

That green engine is almost certainly, but not quite definitely, a 2.5 of some description with a 12or 19J front cover but a 10J manifold.  The injection pump lacks a boost diaphragm system, so it suggests the engine is a 12J with a few 10J parts.

The Tdi uses much higher injection pressure than the older diesels, so I doubt the injectors would react well if you did make a hybrid system, and you’d have to significantly alter the impulse and metering of the injection.  I’m sure it could be made to work,  but with more than just a little adjustment - I think you’d need some expensive custom parts for both pump and injectors, and the pipes linking them would have to be custom, too.  It would definitely not be worth the trouble or expense!

[xychix]

30 minutes ago, Snagger said:

That green engine is almost certainly, but not quite definitely, a 2.5 of some description with a 12or 19J front cover but a 10J manifold.  The injection pump lacks a boost diaphragm system, so it suggests the engine is a 12J with a few 10J parts.

The Tdi uses much higher injection pressure than the older diesels, so I doubt the injectors would react well if you did make a hybrid system, and you’d have to significantly alter the impulse and metering of the injection.  I’m sure it could be made to work,  but with more than just a little adjustment - I think you’d need some expensive custom parts for both pump and injectors, and the pipes linking them would have to be custom, too.  It would definitely not be worth the trouble or expense!

Thanks, I was just curious as I was surprised by the image. This engine is NOT a part of my conversion! 

[xychix]

Does anyone knowif the 200tdi (disco) inlet manifold is the same as the 300tdi inlet manifold?

In that case I'd only need a 300tdi monifold,turbo and oil feed to have a setup that should work with existing exhaust kits like steveparkers

[Anderzander]

So I had 2 side by side when I did mine - both *fit and looked pretty much identical at first glance but their were differences.

I can’t remember the detail of the differences - but I chose to use the 200 inlet and I needed to grind a little around one or two of the flanges to clear the exhaust manifold.

[xychix]

7 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

So I had 2 side by side when I did mine - both *fit and looked pretty much identical at first glance but their were differences.

I can’t remember the detail of the differences - but I chose to use the 200 inlet and I needed to grind a little around one or two of the flanges to clear the exhaust manifold.

cool that's what I needed. The 200tdi inlet CAN be used (with some grinding) in combination with a 300tdi exhaustmanifold and turbo.

That's my route for a 109 SIII LHD. Thanks

[Anderzander]

I’m not sure how much was down to individual variance and how much to spec. But yes - it’s a goer !

[ejparrott]

I think my 109 has the 200 inlet manifold instead of the 300, been so long since I fitted it I can't remember

[Landrover17H]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and I'm sure that for many throwing a TDi in is the way to go. Let's not deny, if it's instant-gratification you're wanting; for quick, relatively easy and cheap, noisy grunt, the things are broadly unbeatable. But the OP did pose the question, a question left unaddressed...

"fit or sh#t?"

To my mind, in the short-term, ie you're thinking the next 2-3 years -  I say "fit'.  But the tide is turning. It'll likely take a while, and none can say when, but with a TDI, you're standing between a dog and a lamp-post.  The writing is on the wall - you will be p*ssed on.

it's happening now in the new car market, deseasal sales are down, the world is steering another path. This won't happen tomorrow, and because diesel will be running anything over three tons for a long time yet, diesel will aways be obtainable. You might have to go to a HGV filling-point, but you're set to get diesel even 25 years from now. So fuleling won't be too hard. Nope, that isn't the real  issue...

The issue is perception. Already 2.25 petrol lumps are going for premiums. As the current glut of diesel vehicles leaves our roads for the scrap-plie, the powers-that-be will quietly creep the rest away too. A TDi leaves us with the right vehicle with what is percieved to be the wrong engine. That point is set to happen far quicker than its practical reality.

A TDi is thus the wrong engine, not for any reasoned or un-reasoned argument. It is wrong becuase 'they' say it is. Forget it, you don't get an opinion. Hence if you're looking long-game, it comes out again. Its replacement will get ever costly. The only question unanswered, is when.

So...

"fit or sh#t?"

Don't forget, when the clock strikes 12, until then...

"Cinders, you shall go to the ball... "

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Landrover17H

[FridgeFreezer]

I suspect 4-pot petrols going for a premium is because Series and Defender are increasingly valuable classics and a lot of them are being put back to original spec - a 200TDi conversion is the right answer if you want a usable everyday vehicle but for a pukka classic a lot of people want the full original experience puttering around the lanes on a sunny weekend and who cares if it's costing you 10mpg. As there's more and more 25-year-old Defenders the US market opens up but they don't like imported conversions as they never got 200TDi Defenders, a lot of vehicles were seized and crushed a while back.

Although the curtain has largely been pulled from the emissions/economy testing lie thanks to the VW scandal I don't think diesel is going anywhere for a decade - people are still buying LOTS of diesels, they still make sense for a lot of people, and most cars live at least 10 years. Certainly engine choice and design is going to be a bit more "honest" when it comes to emissions as everyone's looking a lot closer at it these days, I hear there's a move away from the "tiny turbo lump" approach that's been popular in petrol cars because they were good at passing the old emissions test / MPG rating but fall down somewhat in real-world use... it all goes around.

I also think that whatever lump you throw in today is fairly irrelevant as in 5-10 years time when they've finally sussed out EV batteries the world will stampede to EV conversions and there'll be very little regulatory resistance to doing so as the usual objections don't really apply - they are always zero emission, almost zero noise, the engineering side is very hard to f*** up and it "recycles" an already-made car into a clean green one with almost zero environmental impact, even Tesla can't build a car for no emissions at all. As more EV's end up in scrapyards the conversions are going to get cheaper - right now demand appears to out-strip supply of crashed Teslas and Leafs but that won't last, electric motors are insanely reliable and already incredibly efficient so there's no great penalty to grabbing older high-mileage units as the supply tail grows longer.

Every few years this doom-laden Daily-mail sky-is-falling stuff comes around about the government sending in men in balaclavas to seize and destroy all diesel vehicles under cover of darkness, armed with regulation straight bananas etc. etc. etc. but it's never happened yet and isn't going to - worst case they're going to just keep upping fuel costs / road tax / city centre restrictions to encourage people to move on. All the cool kids want an EV these days, sales are ramping up massively year on year (and presumably used sales will be following behind), by the time we're worrying about which engine to fit next the fossil fuel club is going to be a small minority and as such the government will be far more interested in whatever the scientists / green lobby identify as the next biggest problem - air travel, supertankers from China, Google's data centres, America burning to the ground, whatever it is this week.

[Landrover17H]

i do take your point,  make hay whilst the sun shines - cheap grunt still lies with the standard-swaps, and knowing very well where these land. So what? At that point, the guts from what will be a tired 10-12 year old Nissan Leaf or summint takes its place. This, or something like it, becomes the new standard-swap.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Snagger]

It is possible that road fund (tax) rates for diesels (and eventually petrols) will be set to price them off the road.  That is why some people are being very cautious to keep within the rules to retain tax exemptions.  Of course, fuel duty on those can still be made eye-wateringly expensive, and I think it probably will.  But, death and taxes being the surest things in life, you can guarantee that once uptake is sufficient, the not only will grants or subsidies on buying EVs disappear, but so will the free road fund.  We’ve seen that before with LPG.

I love the idea of electric, but the cost and capacity of the batteries aren’t viable for me in a LR conversion yet.  I’m confident that they will be eventually, but the batteries with enough capacity to be viable for a heavy brick will be hugely expensive for quite a while after they hit the market, so any ICE conversion is likely to see a decade or more of use, I would think.

The greater threat is councils banning diesels from their road networks and vandalism from increasingly ardent environmentalists.

[FridgeFreezer]

55 minutes ago, Snagger said:

The greater threat is councils banning diesels from their road networks and vandalism from increasingly ardent environmentalists.

I've never seen any evidence of environmentalists vandalising diesel vehicles?

[Bowie69]

It'll be anything with an internal combustion engine soon, you wait.

[Snagger]

35 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've never seen any evidence of environmentalists vandalising diesel vehicles?

I have read several reports of it in UK cities, particularly London.  It’s not common, and usually consists of slashed tyres and a bolshy rant on the windscreen.  Rare enough at the moment, but it’ll increase, especially given UK authorities’ apparent tolerance to acts of vandalism in the name of protests.

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've never seen any evidence of environmentalists vandalising diesel vehicles?

You can make the masses believe anything is evil. Look at Veganism - some people honestly believe the nonsense about farming being dangerous for the environment. Look at Trump - some folk genuinely believe he is the saviour...

So all it takes is for PETA to create some more b*ll*x about something....glyphosate causing cancer, lambs being skinned for their fleeces, diesel car drivers spreading Covid 19 when drinking the blood of small children; and as for those V8 petrol driving children of BAAL and their cannibalistic rites

 

[Landrover17H]

Quote

I suspect 4-pot petrols going for a premium is because Series and Defender are increasingly valuable classics and a lot of them are being put back to original spec

Here I can't quite see this, yes that's a big part of it, but something else is going on too. Surely Shirley, if that's all there is to it, 2.25 3MB deseasel lumps will be  found just as pricey, and they're definitely not. Would I be right in saying, more were made 'original' with diesel, hence demand to set classics back to their 'original' diesel should keep prices high? 

Currently, those equivalent 3MB diesels fetch not much over their 'weigh-in'.

But... "It'll be anything with an internal combustion engine soon, you wait." about sums it up.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Landrover17H

[FridgeFreezer]

30 minutes ago, Landrover17H said:

But... "It'll be anything with an internal combustion engine soon, you wait." about sums it up.

I think it'll be "anything generic with an ICE" for a lot of the market but then most car buyers these days don't really give two hoots about what's under the bonnet, the car is an appliance to get them from A to B and that part of the market will be shepherded into EV's with various sticks and carrots. Look at car adverts over the last 10+ years - they sell on touchscreens, smartphone integration, driver aids and mood lighting and say nothing about engines.

The classic scene I suspect will fall by the wayside as being not worth the bother - for governments or environmentalists - much like they did tax & MOT exemption. When there's only 0.1% of cars left burning fuel there's no mileage in kicking up fuss over them for anyone.

[Gazzar]

12 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I think it'll be "anything generic with an ICE" for a lot of the market but then most car buyers these days don't really give two hoots about what's under the bonnet, the car is an appliance to get them from A to B and that part of the market will be shepherded into EV's with various sticks and carrots. Look at car adverts over the last 10+ years - they sell on touchscreens, smartphone integration, driver aids and mood lighting and say nothing about engines.

The classic scene I suspect will fall by the wayside as being not worth the bother - for governments or environmentalists - much like they did tax & MOT exemption. When there's only 0.1% of cars left burning fuel there's no mileage in kicking up fuss over them for anyone.

Hope you are right. I'm happy remaining in the 0.1%.

[Landrover17H]

Quote

The classic scene I suspect will fall by the wayside as being not worth the bother - for governments or environmentalists - much like they did tax & MOT exemption. When there's only 0.1% of cars left burning fuel there's no mileage in kicking up fuss over them for anyone.

That sounds highly likely. There's going to be no money, and by this we mean taxation for chasing it. If you want the truth to most things, follow the money; or in this case, clear lack of it.  We're seen as the odd crack-pot running about in a Morris Minor, most doing minimal miles to minimal effect? And broadly that's true. It's a pure conceit to think they should care?

Edited September 17, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I think it'll be "anything generic with an ICE" for a lot of the market but then most car buyers these days don't really give two hoots about what's under the bonnet, the car is an appliance to get them from A to B and that part of the market will be shepherded into EV's with various sticks and carrots. Look at car adverts over the last 10+ years - they sell on touchscreens, smartphone integration, driver aids and mood lighting and say nothing about engines.

The classic scene I suspect will fall by the wayside as being not worth the bother - for governments or environmentalists - much like they did tax & MOT exemption. When there's only 0.1% of cars left burning fuel there's no mileage in kicking up fuss over them for anyone.

Yes, but The Commons House Commitee on Classic cars did prove that the industry is worth 5.5 billion year and that was in 2015