After market air filters suit 12L 200TDI engine

[Dave64]

HI ALL,

                    Just wondering if anyone's had any success, or what they think of those "K&N" type conical filters?

My project is going to be cramped around the engine area using the standard air canister that was on the original engine.

Had a bit of a look at those aforementioned filters, easy to mount just about anywhere, but don't know just how efficient they would be on a diesel, just point out this engine in a non L/R chassis.

Whatever air filter arrangement would have to be very compact, even thought of a single oil bath similar to the old dual Commer arrangement (just use one) that ran up the back of the cab, or an oil bath that sat on top of the manifold like the old Gardiner engines. But height may be a problem with one of those.

Dave64

[Snagger]

I have a K&N that was used on my 12j and now my 200Tdi.  I used it solely because those engines breathe into the induction system before the filter (to prevent the vapour condensing in the bulk of the ducting and contaminating the turbo and intercooler, and to prevent heavy breathing from causing engine runaway), which means that oil can rapidly clog the paper filter and break it up.  I don’t think there was any performance benefit, purely longevity of the filter.  I have the original 12J filter housing; the K&N matched the paper filter dimensions and is just a substitute cartridge.

Those filters don’t clean the air as well as the standard paper type, but paradoxically, the dirtier the filter gets, the more it cleans the air, as long as it’s kept moistened periodically with the light oil spray.  I’d be wary of using one in very dusty conditions, but I think they’re probably OK if you’re using it mainly on tarmac and grass.  On dusty tracks, which Oz is notorious for, I wouldn’t recommend it.

[Chicken Drumstick]

11 hours ago, Dave64 said:

HI ALL,

                    Just wondering if anyone's had any success, or what they think of those "K&N" type conical filters?

My project is going to be cramped around the engine area using the standard air canister that was on the original engine.

Had a bit of a look at those aforementioned filters, easy to mount just about anywhere, but don't know just how efficient they would be on a diesel, just point out this engine in a non L/R chassis.

Whatever air filter arrangement would have to be very compact, even thought of a single oil bath similar to the old dual Commer arrangement (just use one) that ran up the back of the cab, or an oil bath that sat on top of the manifold like the old Gardiner engines. But height may be a problem with one of those.

Dave64

Ultimately I think any filter will work. Just make sure you have something. 
 

On a more technical level. I’m sure aftermarket filters can flow better than the stock air box. But I’m uncertain if the benefits would be realised on a diesel Land Rover engine in something heavy. Even more so if you aren’t tuning it for maximum power. So any potential performance gains will be negligible. On the flip side you don’t want to strangle the engine either. So try not to add anything more restrictive than a stock setup. 
 

In terms of performance. A K&N is a cotton weave filter. It flows more air, but at the sacrifice  of some filtering ability. Although they are still pretty good. 
 

However they also need to be oiled in order to fully filter properly. And here is the snag. When clean they filter and flow well. However they become dirty far more quickly than a paper filter. And once dirty they also flow worse than a paper filter. So you need to clean a K&N more often than you’d swap out a paper filter. The cleaning products are also expensive. And after cleaning you need to re-oil it. And it is easy to over oil them. Not an issue on a diesel. But can cause MAF issues on petrol engines. 
 

For general UK use. I suspect the above doesn’t really matter all that much. Despite being an issue. However if I was planning on using the vehicle in a very dusty environment. I would be seriously considering what type of filter I would use. 
 

From research over the years. Foam filters tend to flow well, but filter less well than cotton weave. And they also need oiling and cleaning fairly often. 
 

The best filters are synthetic weave filters. A company called Donaldson in the USA uses this type of filter on heavy plant machinery. They offer high flow, high filtering and high durability. But are generally expensive and more difficult to buy. 
 

An oil bath is also a very good filtering system. But may reduce performance a bit if it doesn’t flow well enough. 

[Snagger]

Oil bath are great if they have enough flow, being self cleaning when the oil sloshes about.

[smallfry]

Heavy plant and tractors have a centrifuge unit before the air gets to a filter, as do combine harvesters, and you will struggle to find a more dusty environment than that.

I have used K&N replacement filters in all my vehicles for 25 years or more (mostly road) and all have done a lot of miles, 300k or more, and I certainly DONT clean them every year.

There is no doubt that paper elements filter best, but not for long before they start to restrict airflow. Oil bath probably best for you if you can fit it in, but if not, then a centrifuge before a K&N in a standard filter box IMO

[Snagger]

I think I probably cleaned mine every 10,000 miles (I service engines at 5,000 mile intervals).  It got grotty in the 12J filter housing because of the engine breather dumping vapour into the housing intake, but once if fitted the finned plastic shell from a 12J filter to the K&N, the worst of it was avoided.  It has been quite cheap to service.

[mmgemini]

I have used a K&N filter for years. I don't worry about the graph that was shewn for a K&N against a paper filter as I'm not worried about 5%

[Dave64]

Thanks for a well balanced set of replies, Guys.

Snagger, that was one of my worries, where the breather returms air/vapour to the original canister type.

Any chance of putting up a snap showing where you hooked yours up and how you used the finned piece?

Much appreciated, Dave64

Edited August 2, 2020 by Dave64
addition

[Chicken Drumstick]

Should be easy to T in the breather if you want. Or maybe be cheeky and vent to atmosphere with it.

[Snagger]

19 hours ago, Dave64 said:

Thanks for a well balanced set of replies, Guys.

Snagger, that was one of my worries, where the breather returms air/vapour to the original canister type.

Any chance of putting up a snap showing where you hooked yours up and how you used the finned piece?

Much appreciated, Dave64

All in here:  http://www.nickslandrover.co.uk/easy-breathing/

[Dave64]

Thanks, Snagger.

I was particularly interested in those conical type filters which clamp directly to the turbo inlet.

Not a replacement filter that went inside the existing canister, I am going to have to rethink just how I'm going to go about it.

I'm wondering about the cost of throwing those conical types away, even though you can clean them somewhat. The standard air filter cartridge goes for about A$ 20-25 a throw, think those 3" conicals around the $75, but you should get at least 12 months out of one.

Still leaves me with what to do with the breather pipe, could return it direct to the inlet manifold, maybe put some sort of small canister which could be washed out when servicing.

Dave64

Edited August 4, 2020 by Dave64

[Snagger]

Those conical thes seems adequate for road going vehicles.  I’d be wary of venturing into deep water or very dusty conditions (desert, or African/Australian tracks in summer), but around the UK and most of Europe it should be fine.

[Dave64]

Yeah, might give one a try. There's a device available to suit a small diesel up to 2.5 litre, which is a simple centrifugal canister with a very fine washable element in it, which you can run your breather pipe into, through this device, then into the filter housing. Have ordered one so can try it whilst the cab still off the chassis.

May be worthwhile looking at, cost around the A$35 mark, easily fitted and just may stop the air/vapour/oil being sucked through the turbo.

Only thing I was a bit worried was how those conical type do on a diesel engine. Vehicle unlikely to be going on a a dirt road, or operating under similar conditions.

Did have room where it could have been installed facing directly downwards, but would mean that the cartridge would have to have been removed from the bottom of the canister, also would be likely to pick up spray off the road. Easier to leave her parked up if it's wet!

Dave64

[FridgeFreezer]

Alternative approach is to use an air box & filter from another vehicle, at least that way you're using a standard part of known quality.

[Nonimouse]

I used to use K&N on pretty much everything I drove. Then I got talking to my mate with the flow bench and he pointed out that actually most of the flow figures for K&N drop alarmingly fast, once used in dusty conditions... Very, very fast...

As I all my land rover vehicles since 2003 have had Discovery 200Tdi cylinder filters fitted, they come with a simple cyclonic centrifuge, so I use OEM paper filters...

My 110 had a Donaldson pre-cleaner, which was superb. I shall be fitting on on the Discovery's snorkel as and when I get round to fitting it

[Dave64]

All good and valuable info Guys. Thanks!

As I pointed out previously, the 200 engine is going into a project vehicle (a small cab-over truck) where the only realistic place to mount the air cleaner is either by one of those tapered conical looking filters directly to the turbo inlet, mount the original canister type facing straight downwards, reluctant for reasons previously stated, OR maybe one of those rectangular box affairs similar to a 300 engine, mounted on some sort of frame sitting on top of the engine.

Engine hatch would have to be modified for that.

Keep scratching around, will come up  with something.

Cheers, Dave64

[muddy]

Can you not mount the filter behind the cab? perhaps a picture of the setup might help us?

[Dave64]

Yeah, can always do that, fair distance for the turbo to drag the air from though. Could always be helped a bit by a '" Ram Horn", one of those Donaldson type , but you have to be doing fifty km's an hour to jam the air down into the turbo.

Cabin away at the moment.

Dave64

[Nonimouse]

Can you not mount it on the wing?

[Dave64]

Nonimouse wrote:-"Can you not mount it on the wing?"

As in one of my replies above, it(200 engine) is in a small cab over truck, very confined, there is no "wing".

Dave64

[HoSS]

I always go to the breakers yard for air boxes. I had a Laguna V6 unit on my V8 and have some Honda thing of excellent capacity on my TGB. Beats the chinese cone filters and way cheaper than K&N bling + easily replaceable, just make note of which car, year etc you got it from.

edit - i see fridge said the same

 

[Dave64]

Thanks

Dave64

[muddy]

if it has to drag it from the back of the tray its not gonna make much difference on a tdi. especially if you fit a larger filter in the first place.

[Dave64]

Thanks, Dave64