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Hi, my early 90 doesn't have anti roll bars, I'm finding the 90 a hard thing to drive due to my balance issues and the side to side roll on my 90, i want to try a anti roll bar but which end would be best to improve roll and steering sharpness ?

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Start with one at the back, and if that isn’t enough, add one at the front.

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What springs does it have at the moment?

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2 hours ago, Davidpaul said:

Hi, my early 90 doesn't have anti roll bars, I'm finding the 90 a hard thing to drive due to my balance issues and the side to side roll on my 90, i want to try a anti roll bar but which end would be best to improve roll and steering sharpness ?

What sort of balance issues are you referring too?

Most 90’s over the years didn’t have anti-roll bars. And with the right shocks/springs should handle well and not lean excessively. 
 

Do you know what suspension is on the vehicle now and what condition it is? If it’s an old mismash or worn out parts. It’s probably worth refreshing them before looking at ARB’s. Can always post some photos up here to help ID parts for you  

If you do go the ARB route, then factory fitted ones would be to the rear. You’ll need to check for the mounts on the axles though. As they normally aren’t present if it didn’t have an ARB from the factory. If you don’t have them you’ll need them welding on or sourcing an axle with them. Maybe from a Disco 1. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

What sort of balance issues are you referring too?

Most 90’s over the years didn’t have anti-roll bars. And with the right shocks/springs should handle well and not lean excessively. 
 

Do you know what suspension is on the vehicle now and what condition it is? If it’s an old mismash or worn out parts. It’s probably worth refreshing them before looking at ARB’s. Can always post some photos up here to help ID parts for you  

If you do go the ARB route, then factory fitted ones would be to the rear. You’ll need to check for the mounts on the axles though. As they normally aren’t present if it didn’t have an ARB from the factory. If you don’t have them you’ll need them welding on or sourcing an axle with them. Maybe from a Disco 1. 

My balance, both of my balance organs were destroyed by a virus 20 years ago which has also left me with chronic fatigue both make driving my old truck challenging,  we spend a lot of time exploring back roads which can be uneven  to say the least, it's the rocking from side to side that get's me the worst, it isn't much but its enough to make things hard for me.

All the suspension is new polybush comfort bushes, std front springs with land rover heavy duty rear springs front and rear are std height and new std shocks

She doesn't have mounts front or rear so i will have to get some weld on brackets 

There are a few companies making weld on brackets now for axle and chassis

YRM metal solutions is one

Edited by Davidpaul

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Personally, I'm not sure that ARBs are going to fix that, that much for you, e.g. if you go into a hole on the left side, the truck will still lurch left. They only stop roll relative to the axle, so if the axle is on an off-slope, so will the truck be.

I suggest, you may want to look at some better dampers. When the axle drops away, the following movement of the body will then be properly damped, meaning you you get thrown around less violently. You could even get some adjustable ones, in which case you can tune for bump and rebound to your unique set of requirements, something that no standard shock is likely to get near.

The side effect here is that you will get better body control when you hit an obstacle right across the track as well, so it is a win, win situation.

My 2 penneth anyways.

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34 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Personally, I'm not sure that ARBs are going to fix that, that much for you, e.g. if you go into a hole on the left side, the truck will still lurch left. They only stop roll relative to the axle, so if the axle is on an off-slope, so will the truck be.

I suggest, you may want to look at some better dampers. When the axle drops away, the following movement of the body will then be properly damped, meaning you you get thrown around less violently. You could even get some adjustable ones, in which case you can tune for bump and rebound to your unique set of requirements, something that no standard shock is likely to get near.

The side effect here is that you will get better body control when you hit an obstacle right across the track as well, so it is a win, win situation.

My 2 penneth anyways.

Ok you've got my attention, so would this be why I can drive my Freelander 2 hundreds of miles with little problem, the Freelander also tows better, same trailer on my 90 and its pulling the 90 all over the place.

So I'm now thinking better shocks will help with the towing as well ?

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33 minutes ago, Davidpaul said:

o would this be why I can drive my Freelander 2 hundreds of miles with little problem,

That might be the wohle NVH thing of a Defender.... :)

33 minutes ago, Davidpaul said:

the Freelander also tows better, same trailer on my 90 and its pulling the 90 all over the place.

The Freelander is a lower slung vehicle, with and has suspension at least designed somewhere near the end of the century, rather than late 1960s. It will also brake better, stop better and be waaaaay more comfy. Progress....

That said, better shocks will certainly help the towing out on the 90. To be honest though, the 90s do always seems a bit pitchy to me, I prefer a longer wheelbase, which I assume your Freelander has as well, which again will help....

33 minutes ago, Davidpaul said:

So I'm now thinking better shocks will help with the towing as well ?

Shocks won't cure it, but will certainly control the body much better, and a more controlled body will certainly feel nicer to drive, and give the tyres a lot less work to do. You used to be able to buy shocks for passenger cars made just for people that tow a lot, so there must be something in it.

Avoid cheap stuff, they just won't last. Koni seem to get a good rep on here and other places, as do OME which are slightly cheaper. Avoid britpart, terrafirma, procomp, supergaz. It won't be cheap, but I suspect, given you have come here asking, you are keen to fix things, and in all likelihood it will be cheaper than a set of ARBs and the work required to fit.

 

*edited to add, Fox also have a good rep. *

 

*also edited to say you could probably get away with softer springs in the rear as well, if you had better damping, assuming you don't carry heavy loads *

 

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3 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

That might be the wohle NVH thing of a Defender.... :)

The Freelander is a lower slung vehicle, with and has suspension at least designed somewhere near the end of the century, rather than late 1960s. It will also brake better, stop better and be waaaaay more comfy. Progress....

That said, better shocks will certainly help the towing out on the 90. To be honest though, the 90s do always seems a bit pitchy to me, I prefer a longer wheelbase, which I assume your Freelander has as well, which again will help....

Shocks won't cure it, but will certainly control the body much better, and a more controlled body will certainly feel nicer to drive, and give the tyres a lot less work to do. You used to be able to buy shocks for passenger cars made just for people that tow a lot, so there must be something in it.

Avoid cheap stuff, they just won't last. Koni seem to get a good rep on here and other places, as do OME which are slightly cheaper. Avoid britpart, terrafirma, procomp, supergaz. It won't be cheap, but I suspect, given you have come here asking, you are keen to fix things, and in all likelihood it will be cheaper than a set of ARBs and the work required to fit.

What about these - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LAND-ROVER-DEFENDER-90-110-H-DUTY-OLD-MAN-EMU-NITROCHARGER-SHOCK-ABSORBER-SET/262163426599?hash=item3d0a286d27:g:YMUAAOSwDhxd3KxN

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I have O.M.E dampers & springs on my 110 with a standard fit antiroll bar at the rear only, I can make good progress on country roads & the ride is very good. [I'm in your area too]

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I'm sure they would be a huge improvement over stock, obviously not adjustable of course, but for that you pay double that, and maybe some more.

 

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30 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I'm sure they would be a huge improvement over stock, obviously not adjustable of course, but for that you pay double that, and maybe some more.

 

Koni heavy track shocks are adjustable but i think you have to take the shock off to adjust them, price £415 for a set of 4

Spax ajustable shocks are easy to adjust but cost nearly £600 for 4

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What do you use the 90 for? IMO for a nicer ride I think as Bowie says some decent shocks. Adjustable ones from the likes of Fox or King mean they’re infinitely adjustable to get it riding just how you want it. Both the bump and rebound valving can be adjusted along with different oils etc. And at the money for the Koni Raid ones, I wouldn’t have thought the Fox/king are far off and IMO infinitely better as they’re totally customisable. I also think you’d be better off with standard non HD rear springs as well as they’ll make the back very harsh unless you’re carrying lots of weight. Even if you’re towing lots you shouldn’t need HD rear springs if the trailer is loaded right. I’d also say you’ll get a better ride on standard bushes. 

I’d say try the decent shocks first, as they’ll be good no matter what and then play with the rest. 

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20 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

What do you use the 90 for? IMO for a nicer ride I think as Bowie says some decent shocks. Adjustable ones from the likes of Fox or King mean they’re infinitely adjustable to get it riding just how you want it. Both the bump and rebound valving can be adjusted along with different oils etc. And at the money for the Koni Raid ones, I wouldn’t have thought the Fox/king are far off and IMO infinitely better as they’re totally customisable. I also think you’d be better off with standard non HD rear springs as well as they’ll make the back very harsh unless you’re carrying lots of weight. Even if you’re towing lots you shouldn’t need HD rear springs if the trailer is loaded right. I’d also say you’ll get a better ride on standard bushes. 

I’d say try the decent shocks first, as they’ll be good no matter what and then play with the rest. 

She's used for exploring Cornwall with my lads, towing my tractor and trailer, and towing a vintage trailer plough at vintage vehicle working days

IMG_4631.JPG

IMG_4628.JPG

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39 minutes ago, Davidpaul said:

Koni heavy track shocks are adjustable but i think you have to take the shock off to adjust them, price £415 for a set of 4

Spax ajustable shocks are easy to adjust but cost nearly £600 for 4

£600 is still cheap for good shocks I am afraid ;)

Ross reminded me of King, good shocks.

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P.s. nice classic looking truck!

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Cool, let us know how you get on :) 

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On 8/1/2020 at 9:09 PM, Davidpaul said:

Ok you've got my attention, so would this be why I can drive my Freelander 2 hundreds of miles with little problem, the Freelander also tows better, same trailer on my 90 and its pulling the 90 all over the place.

So I'm now thinking better shocks will help with the towing as well ?

I hope the shocks do the trick for you. But sadly I think what you are experiencing is a live axle more than anything. The 90 also has a pretty short wheel base too. And of course quite a lot of ground clearance and ride height.

I can't personally say I have an issue with live axles in this regard. But if you are finding the FL2 fine for the same use, then it does suggest something more fundamental in the design and behaviour of the 90. Not just tuning of the suspension.

Maybe see if you can snag a ride in a V8 Discovery 1/RRC (late model). They have much better NVH than a Defender and ARB's. While they might not be sporting aftermarket shocks, they should give a pretty good idea of where you could get a Defender too. If they still don't suit, then there probably isn't much you can modify.

The only last option would be to try a Discovery 2, but make sure it is one with working ACE (Active Cornering Enhancement). ACE is a hydraulic, reactive anti-roll bar. It senses when the vehicle begins to roll/lean and stiffens up the anti-roll bar. They do stay incredibly level.

 

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On 8/2/2020 at 8:56 AM, Davidpaul said:

Set of 4 spax adjustable shocks ordered, feeling optimistic 

No idea which model you’ve gone for but there are ‘adjustable’ and adjustable/rebuildable. 

It would seem that a lot of your issue stem from the shorter wheelbase. IMO the front to rear choppiness of a 90 is made vastly worse with an HD spring in the rear. Where abouts are you based? I’ve got a pair of standard 90 rear springs you’re welcome to try out if you’re anywhere near Oxford/Swindon?

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I followed a mostly standard 90 on a few green lanes in my LWB and have been surprised as to how choppy it rode in comparison with my series on parabolic springs. 

Would soft top springs reduce the abruptness of the ride? Or loading a dozen breeze blocks into the back to stabilise the axle?

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Soft springs well damped will always be nicer than hard springs and soft dampers.

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23 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Soft springs well damped will always be nicer than hard springs and soft dampers.

Which I believe was a philosophy of the great Colin Chapman IIRC?

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Having done nearly quarter of a million miles in a commercial-sprung 90 I can safely say the only time it’s ever ridden ‘nicely’ is with a decent weight in the back :lol:

An early 110SW (or RRC) with self-levelled suspension is a dream by comparison.

Body roll side-to-side should be able to be overcome though. An ARB is a well tested solution if the heavier springs don’t do the job on their own. 

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1 minute ago, Retroanaconda said:

Having done nearly quarter of a million miles in a commercial-sprung 90 I can safely say the only time it’s ever ridden ‘nicely’ is with a decent weight in the back :lol:

An early 110SW (or RRC) with self-levelled suspension is a dream by comparison.

Body roll side-to-side should be able to be overcome though. An ARB is a well tested solution if the heavier springs don’t do the job on their own. 

Do you know what springs you've got on the rear James? 

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