Land Rover loses court case

[Chicken Drumstick]

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/court-says-land-rover-shape-can-t-be-trademarked-1.4322517

 

Court says Land Rover shape can’t be trademarked

 

 

An interesting quote from Land Rover as well:

“The Land Rover Defender is an iconic vehicle which is part of Land Rover’s past, present and future. Its unique shape is instantly recognisable and signifies the Land Rover brand around the world.”

 

Are they just pining as they lost. Or is there a hint that they still had/have plans to do something a bit more "proper" Defender'ish?

[Blanco]

8 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

Are they just pining as they lost. Or is there a hint that they still had/have plans to do something a bit more "proper" Defender'ish?

Surely the former......... they'd have secured some sort of copyright otherwise. Great find btw, I literally had just put down my hard copy of the Irish Times, and have just done  a huge double check, it isn't in the printed version.... maybe tomorrow.

[Anderzander]

I hadn’t realised Land Rover had appealed ... they lost the original case in 2019 and this shows they lodged a High Court appeal, which has now been dismissed.

If they thought the shape was that precious .... why didn’t they build a car that looked like it ?

[steve b]

Exactly , there are plenty of quite effective retro modern vehicles flooding the roads already  Fiat 500 , Beetle , Mini & G wagen to name but a few . I really hope Ineos 

get to market and are successful , utility 4x4 chassis based 3.5T trucks is still a marketplace .

Launching the Ineos in Amsterdam appeals to my sense of balance and good marketing ....

Steve 

[mad_pete]

I don’t think the fact the defender is out of production matters. Land Rover have gone oi that’s our box shape ! We are that ones that copied Willy’s Jeep, not you. 
 

and the judge is like dude it’s a box.....

The defender I think had to change and if you are going to change it go all in.

The new mini isn’t exactly very like for like for the old one  in my opinion.

[steve b]

None of them are , upgrading with modern everything including ergonomics is the point of a factory retro ride surely ? 

Steve

[Blanco]

44 minutes ago, mad_pete said:

and the judge is like dude it’s a box.....

[jeremy996]

JLR shot themselves in the foot by not protecting the shape while it was still in current build. Their survey did not help - recognition was far from 100%.

[paime]

11 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

JLR shot themselves in the foot by not protecting the shape while it was still in current build. Their survey did not help - recognition was far from 100%.

Out of interest, what was the recognition number for the shape? Would be interesting to see how that pairs against minis and beetles etc.

[jeremy996]

5 hours ago, paime said:

Out of interest, what was the recognition number for the shape? Would be interesting to see how that pairs against minis and beetles etc.

Digging out the original decision, IPO Decision, 20-40% recognised a LR Defender from a photo, (around section 112). The judge's comments are interesting, 'Jeep" indeed!

A bit of commentary: IP Blog posting

[Peaklander]

I read this news elsewhere.  In that article it was said that the company making the London black cabs also lost a similar appeal at some point in the past. Nestlé did too, for the four finger Kit Kat. 

[paime]

 

8 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Digging out the original decision, IPO Decision,

"20. There is a strong second-hand market in the vehicles. There were around 20k second hand sales of Defender vehicles in each of the years between 2012 and 2016. In 2016, there were around 55k Land Rover Defenders on the road in the UK."

If i'm reading that correctly, 36% of Defenders on the road were sold every year between 2012 and 2016. That probably speaks to a lot of people getting fed up being cold and wet and unable to have a conversation with their passengers and also a lot of people who miss being cold and wet and unable to have a conversation with their passengers. Somebody needs to do a study on the mindset of us defender and series owners!

[Gazzar]

3 hours ago, paime said:

 

"20. There is a strong second-hand market in the vehicles. There were around 20k second hand sales of Defender vehicles in each of the years between 2012 and 2016. In 2016, there were around 55k Land Rover Defenders on the road in the UK."

If i'm reading that correctly, 36% of Defenders on the road were sold every year between 2012 and 2016. That probably speaks to a lot of people getting fed up being cold and wet and unable to have a conversation with their passengers and also a lot of people who miss being cold and wet and unable to have a conversation with their passengers. Somebody needs to do a study on the mindset of us defender and series owners!

I'd rather they didn't do a study on my mindset. I expect I would fall foul of a number of pieces of thought crime legislation. Or mental health acts.

[mad_pete]

That’s funny.

Land Rover our shape is so iconic we must protect it.

Then most people from the picture  are like it’a a Jeep right ? 

 

[Gazzar]

In Ireland the word "Jeep" is a generic term for all proper 4x4 vehicles. It's actually used in legislation.

It reminds me of the urban story that the name comes from people referring to the WW2 US DoD vehicle as general purpose: GP, or geep.

[mickeyw]

If anything the Merc G Wagen, or G class as they now call it, looks just as boxy as the Series 2/3/90/110/Defender.

It emerged in the late 70's, about the same time as LR started making coil sprung boxes. I've yet to hear Daimler Benz complaining, or being complained about in this regard. This whole case is definitely aimed at Sir Jim and is a sour grapes job for sure. I doubt they believed he would go this far with his plans.

Disregarding  the obscene cost of the G, Mercedes has managed to evolve the model underneath and inside, yet keeping the outer shape largely untouched. I imagine their market is focussed closer to where LR would like to be, although I wonder how many they sell at that price.
If LR were that serious about the shape and heritage I am sure they could have done the same.

[Dave W]

3 hours ago, Gazzar said:

In Ireland the word "Jeep" is a generic term for all proper 4x4 vehicles. It's actually used in legislation.

It reminds me of the urban story that the name comes from people referring to the WW2 US DoD vehicle as general purpose: GP, or geep.

Just Enough Essential Parts was the version I was always told.

Regarding the IPO thing I think Land Rover pretty much shot themselves in the foot on that when they released the new vehicle with a Defender badge on it. The fact that the company is willing to completely throw away the "iconic shape" and replace it with another Freelander/Discovery shows that the only value of that shape for them is in dodgy marketing, pretending that the new vehicle has any connection with it's past.

[Chicken Drumstick]

28 minutes ago, mickeyw said:

If anything the Merc G Wagen, or G class as they now call it, looks just as boxy as the Series 2/3/90/110/Defender.

It emerged in the late 70's, about the same time as LR started making coil sprung boxes. I've yet to hear Daimler Benz complaining, or being complained about in this regard. This whole case is definitely aimed at Sir Jim and is a sour grapes job for sure. I doubt they believed he would go this far with his plans.

Disregarding  the obscene cost of the G, Mercedes has managed to evolve the model underneath and inside, yet keeping the outer shape largely untouched. I imagine their market is focussed closer to where LR would like to be, although I wonder how many they sell at that price.
If LR were that serious about the shape and heritage I am sure they could have done the same.

US sales:

2019	7.348
2018	3.970
2017	4.188
2016	3.950
2015	3.616
2014	3.090
2013	2.494

 

 

Europe sales:

2019	8.682
2018	6.071
2017	5.457
2016	4.646
2015	2.936
2014	2.406
2013	2.632

 

https://carsalesbase.com/us-mercedes-benz-g-class/

https://carsalesbase.com/europe-mercedes-benz-g-class/

[Anderzander]

Interesting reading that !

Interesting that Land Rover not taking a firm stance with companies like twisted, and allowing Santana to produce a vehicle after the end of their licence agreement without contest, has formed some of the basis for shooting themselves in the foot.

Also they call out what they define as distinctive of the 4x4 market to include things like curved glass and aerodynamic well finished panels - and then tried to distinguish the Defender from that norm by effectively saying it’s  poorly made. That seems to say more about their lack of respect and understanding for their own (old) product - and highlight that they really don’t understand utility vehicles anymore.

So I’m not at the end yet - but they seem to have suffered from having the worse legal team and their own lack of understanding for what a utility vehicle actually is.

[Bigj66]

I was on the way to B&Q this afternoon and for the first time ever I passed one of the new Defenders. I was struck by how small it seemed compared to the 110 I was driving.

And the driver didn’t wave........🙄

’Nuff said 😐

[Anderzander]

I think they are lower but quite a bit wider. 

[missingsid]

At first I was disgusted, then I was mortified.....

Nooooo no songs.

I could see where LR were coming from but then again the back of a D1/2 looks like a Shogun to me and every 60's supercar looks similar.

The point about calling a LR a Jeep is just public ignorance and not a valid reason to deny the shape. A production LR of any period does not look like a Willy's only the concept looked a bit like one.

The thing for me is the curved hips that are pure S2/90/110 and there is no mechanical reason to copy it in a totaly new design, the front end is I guess some boxes with lights on the front so quite common to other 4x4 products.

 

So if things go well for the Ineos I can get used to people asking if my S1 is a classic Ineos then?

[Anderzander]

2 hours ago, missingsid said:

So if things go well for the Ineos I can get used to people asking if my S1 is a classic Ineos then?

😂

 

I agree with you on the barrel sides and think that would have been a stronger point to have focused on - David Bache, the Rover chief stylist,  produced that. So they can definitely say it’s theirs.

That and the bonnet are the bits of continuity on the Series / Defender and their stand out ‘design’ feature above being a box imo.

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, missingsid said:

At first I was disgusted, then I was mortified.....

Nooooo no songs.

I could see where LR were coming from but then again the back of a D1/2 looks like a Shogun to me and every 60's supercar looks similar.

The point about calling a LR a Jeep is just public ignorance and not a valid reason to deny the shape. A production LR of any period does not look like a Willy's only the concept looked a bit like one.

The thing for me is the curved hips that are pure S2/90/110 and there is no mechanical reason to copy it in a totaly new design, the front end is I guess some boxes with lights on the front so quite common to other 4x4 products.

 

So if things go well for the Ineos I can get used to people asking if my S1 is a classic Ineos then?

As a Land Rover fan. I think they are distinctive. But I’m a petrol head and have always been into cars and 4x4’s. I know plenty of people who really wouldn’t have a clue what was or wasn’t a Land Rover. 
 

Rationally I think there was never going to be a case. As it puts it in the linked document. It isn’t about being distinctive from other cars. But from other 4x4’s. And while in finer detail there are differences. The general shape as a 3D image is not hugely different to many other vehicles. 
 

Which I suspect is ultimately why so few (or any) cars have their shape trade marked. It is an impossible ask. 

[Anderzander]

That must apply across all vehicle types - the vast majority of cars look a bit of a muchness now don’t they... if you removed the badges from all the cars I pass on the way to the shops - the vast majority I wouldn’t have a clue what they were.