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It’s the wrong engine .... discuss ...


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I don't see ECU's as the problem they are programmed and not touched again, it's the sensors that fail in my view.

Yes you may need to interigate the error codes, but even without you can fault find and having the codes doesn't always help anyway.

I have a program tool for my D3 but except for the O2 heater failure it has never helped fix any problems, just enabled me to create more by making config changes.

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8 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I'm just a lowly V8 owner but I thought if the shutoff solenoid failed you just unscrewed it and carried on?

I think you have to remove it, take off the plunger or o-ring, and then refit, otherwise you have a big leaky hole in the case, but yes, there is a simple bypass.  You just need to stall the engine to stop it.

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20 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I'm just a lowly V8 owner but I thought if the shutoff solenoid failed you just unscrewed it and carried on?

Two problems with that: 

1) To "just unscrew it" you need the right socket as the access doesn't allow a bodge.  I now carry one!

2) As Snagger pointed out, you can't just leave it off because there is a a large hole in the injector pump to deal with.  I couldn't just plug it with the broken valve, minus plunger, because it had exploded and no longer could hold fuel pressure.  In the absence of a replacement part, it was extremely difficult to sort out.  

For what it's worth, the offending part was fabricated several thousand miles east of Solihull and was unlikely to have been genuine.  The lottery of buying parts in New Zealand!  To bring this back on track, the modern engine has several of these peripherals, most vital to good running, which means it is ever more wise to stick with something proven.  While we all think of modern vehicles as being utterly reliable, I wonder if that reliability actually peaked about thirty years ago?

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I'll certainly agree that modern stuff is crammed with tonnes of spurious electronics but the main issue with them is that manufacturers are still allowed to "lock them down" against "unauthorised repair" - they've managed to hide behind security, safety, and emissions as excuses but really it just makes life hard and sends working vehicles to the scrapyard.

However, the electronics are there because they allow incredible levels of performance / economy / reliability compared to "analog" cars and allow a level of idiot-proofing that saves the manufacturer huge amounts on warranty claims.

Now, my experience of tens of thousands of miles of driving in various megasquirted vehicles has been that a minimally complicated system that's totally open works wonderfully - there's no secrets, there's nothing there that isn't essential to running the engine, and the code it runs is pretty much a single physics equation for how much fuel to mix with this much air at any given moment. I know what every component on the circuit board does and can replace or bodge it with many easily available standard components, same with sensors - if my ford crank sensor dies I can (for example) fit a VW ABS sensor in its place and carry on running with zero problems.

The difference is the MS isn't locked-down, all the info - and I do mean ALL the info, down the circuit board layout - is available online for free. If Grenadier did that with their diagnostics I'd believe they were serious, but I really don't believe for a moment BMW would let them do that.

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What would they be serious about though? 
 

Let’s say the engine and gearbox is reliable enough to be viable for use by farmers and land workers - the majority of which will operate within a reasonable distance of civilisation.

So for those users there is likely no cost vs risk based rationale for not using a Commercial Off The Shelf engine package.

Who else ? 

Say explorers .... I would imagine the majority of those would operate with enough backing to start with a new vehicle and back up to recover them if something goes wrong.

Overlanders ?

Well youtube is full of clueless people in very modern vehicles half way around the world - so I don’t know what that means for it?


So where is repairability going to stretch that ?  

I would say single low resource journeys into very remote places ? The world has got smaller - and these lifestyle overlanders seem to prove that - but of course there are places where your life would depend on being able to drive out. There probably isn’t a ton of places like that though and there probably isn’t a ton of people who do it? 
 

The other place where repairability increases as a priority is long term ownership and second hand market. I doubt either of those factor too highly in any commercial mindset, but I wonder if electric makes a difference for that?

If not electric - then the fact that the electronics on the Ineos are largely limited to the engine then it should be ripe for putting different engines in further down the line.

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@Anderzander I don't honestly think any of it matters in this day and age, as you say farmers / commercial users are used to high tech nowadays, explorers / overlanders have either enough money not to mind or little enough clue to be worried, and the world is small enough nowadays that most places on the planet you could explore in a Merc Sprinter van with a bed & fridge in the back rather than a boyed-up 100k 4x4...

By the same token this is why I think the complaints about the new Defender are pointless and the hype about the Grenadier is too - because for most buyers the Defender will do it all in a more modern and civilised package, and probably for not very much more money.

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11 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

The difference is the MS isn't locked-down, all the info - and I do mean ALL the info, down the circuit board layout - is available online for free. If Grenadier did that with their diagnostics I'd believe they were serious, but I really don't believe for a moment BMW would let them do that.

The early publicity around the Grenadier implied exactly that - that the vehicle would be supportable with the OBD as part of the vehicle comms. As the engine is a crate motor, it would follow that the engine code would the basic set and Ineos have control over the body systems. (The gearbox is the unknown quantity for me). (This when John Deere were getting lots of bad publicity for locking down the systems on their agri products).

My worry is whether the initial marketing speak about open source will really come to fruition; Tesla said they'd open source their tech but is has not come to pass, if anything Tesla make LR look like pussycats when it comes to IP. The Ineos team have said that 3rd parties can supply accessories/mods and the utility rail on the truck belt line, which seems to be a tilt in the right direction, but as I have said before, the proof will be in the pudding.

Edited by jeremy996
typo!
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11 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

By the same token this is why I think the complaints about the new Defender are pointless and the hype about the Grenadier is too - because for most buyers the Defender will do it all in a more modern and civilised package, and probably for not very much more money.

For me the difference though is that the Defender is a car.

I remember when Mercedes brought out the ML, in the late 90’s, a local farmer bought one to replace his Defender - the sheep he put in the back ate the trim and the leather off the seats - he wasn’t bothered about that - what did bother him was how rapidly it fell to bits and how expensive parts and service were. He also (At that time) couldn’t get decent tyres on it and got stuck a lot.

I expect the new Defender wouldn’t get stuck much - though you’d still struggle to get decent tyres for it so they would have limits a hill farmer would find, but more likely I very much doubt it has much toughness about it ...

 ....I think Ineos are trying to build their vehicle to be have minimal electronics, be modifiable, and be tough. Where I’d have more confidence in the reliability of minimal electronics on a BMW engine - than a car full of Land Rover gadgets - and I could more easily and cheaply configure it to suit my particular set of needs. 

So - I think you could use an expensive car full of clever electronics as an off road utility vehicle - but it’s not ideal.

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Plus I’d rather cut my todger off than support Gerry McGovern being any more smug.

No one needs to feel more right, or be confirmed in their self absorption, than that man clearly already does.

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On 8/24/2020 at 3:57 PM, Anderzander said:

For me the difference though is that the Defender is a car.

I remember when Mercedes brought out the ML, in the late 90’s, a local farmer bought one to replace his Defender - the sheep he put in the back ate the trim and the leather off the seats - he wasn’t bothered about that - what did bother him was how rapidly it fell to bits and how expensive parts and service were. He also (At that time) couldn’t get decent tyres on it and got stuck a lot.

I expect the new Defender wouldn’t get stuck much - though you’d still struggle to get decent tyres for it so they would have limits a hill farmer would find, but more likely I very much doubt it has much toughness about it ...

 ....I think Ineos are trying to build their vehicle to be have minimal electronics, be modifiable, and be tough. Where I’d have more confidence in the reliability of minimal electronics on a BMW engine - than a car full of Land Rover gadgets - and I could more easily and cheaply configure it to suit my particular set of needs. 

So - I think you could use an expensive car full of clever electronics as an off road utility vehicle - but it’s not ideal.

Ineos have gone out of their way to make the vehicles adaptable and are very open to modifications, both theirs and third party.  McGovern stated he intends to put all third party LR services out of business.  It is his view that no owner has the right to adapt the vehicle in anyway that he didn’t think of and pays over the odds LR prices for limited, impractical accessories.  That philosophy is abundantly clear in the Pretender’s design.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/14/2020 at 7:28 PM, Gazzar said:

I'm sure the engines can be built to be field repairable, at a cost.

Use of brass, more modular components, high grade plastics that are UV and temperature stable.

All possible.

But when the architect who drew the design, has to tell the engineers who specified the engine to remove the plastic engine cover in order to meet the pedestrian crash standards, I wonder if they really have the right experience to build an African mechanic proof vehicle.

ECU's are fine, everywhere has laptops now.

i haven't got a lap top or a cellular telephone

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having spent roughly 30 years flying a desk with 4 phones, a work supplied cellular telephone and 4 computers. I have no desire to engage with them in my private life. Other then in the room wherein this particular device is located

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2 hours ago, neil110 said:

having spent roughly 30 years flying a desk with 4 phones, a work supplied cellular telephone and 4 computers. I have no desire to engage with them in my private life. Other then in the room wherein this particular device is located

Sorry but you are either being short sighted or just stubborn?

Either ask for DIY/easy maitenance using the current/next standards or you have to pay someone to do it for you.

Of course we can join the greens and go back to living in caves to save the world (oh but wood fires emit CO2).

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9 hours ago, neil110 said:

i haven't got a lap top or a cellular telephone

Regrettably it's uneconomical to build an engine that meets emissions regulations without some degree of ECU control, which will require a computer or phone to access.

And computers/phones are cheap and ubiquitous even in India and Africa. 

So, a modern computer controlled engine can be serviced in the bush, as well as in a motor dealer infested society.

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8 hours ago, missingsid said:

 

Of course we can join the greens and go back to living in caves to save the world (oh but wood fires emit CO2).

The word "greens" means different things in different places but there is no excuse at all, in this world where information is freely available, to not live in a way that respects our environment.  Wood fires emit carbon dioxide that has only recently been fixed by plants.  Those plants are usually replaced, making wood fires carbon neutral.

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24 minutes ago, deep said:

.........plants are usually replaced, making wood fires carbon neutral.

All the previous is true, but everything has consequences, positive and negative. Wood fires may be carbon neutral but the fine particulates produced are quite unpleasant for people, animals and the general environment. Quite a bit of the recent decline of air quality in London is ascribed to the trendy wood burners of the Islintonian set.  I have acquaintances who think any technology past the bicycle is beyond the pale and others that believe that the human race should actively reduce its own numbers drastically. The engine of a niche, low volume 4x4 is unlikely to have too much influence either way.

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Sorry it just rankles that we are still stuck on arguments about the current levels of Tech in vehicles and that some people expect to return to a Series 1 level because they still have a stereotype view that 3rd world mechanics can't use tech and that in the desert you can't use a simple £10 hand held fault reader.

My Series 1 (OK a V8) has MegaJolt because the dizzy was so worn out it would not run at times.

The Green comment was due to a comment on another Forum about wireless phone chargers causing the end of the Planet, plus how as a Petrolhead  I was born 10/20 years too late to enjoy it without being seen as public enemy #1.

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22 hours ago, missingsid said:

Sorry but you are either being short sighted or just stubborn?

Either ask for DIY/easy maitenance using the current/next standards or you have to pay someone to do it for you.

Of course we can join the greens and go back to living in caves to save the world (oh but wood fires emit CO2).

I make my life choices and feel no need to explain them to you

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Anyway ......

The engine !  

We perhaps have a consensus that:

It makes sense for Ineos to go with a COTS* engine and gearbox package (*commercial off the shelf).

To pass emissions regulation modern engines need a level of electronics.
 

It’s recognised that well maintained modern engines can prove very reliable - and modern engines vehicles in other manufacturers have been going into very remote places and coming back with some regularity.

There is a concern though with modern engine manufacturing- where a lot of ancillary parts are not made for long term durability - and this is most likely to impact where repairs are needed after w period of time, which may be into 2nd or 3rd ownership.

 

That seems to be where I’ve got to on this .:::: anyone anywhere different ? 

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4 hours ago, Anderzander said:

Anyway ......

The engine !  

We perhaps have a consensus that:

It makes sense for Ineos to go with a COTS* engine and gearbox package (*commercial off the shelf).

To pass emissions regulation modern engines need a level of electronics.
 

It’s recognised that well maintained modern engines can prove very reliable - and modern engines vehicles in other manufacturers have been going into very remote places and coming back with some regularity.

There is a concern though with modern engine manufacturing- where a lot of ancillary parts are not made for long term durability - and this is most likely to impact where repairs are needed after w period of time, which may be into 2nd or 3rd ownership.

 

That seems to be where I’ve got to on this .:::: anyone anywhere different ? 

This seems true of LR under Ford ownership as they seem to think that a vehicle lifetime is around 80k miles then it is someone elses problem.

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