My 14YO hasn't welded before - Welding kit advice please

[landroversforever]

23 hours ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

I did 12 months TIG training at crawley tech college - look locally, as its a seriously risky thing to learn DIY and if you get bad habits from the start tricky to change.

Night courses are avaiaoble and not expensive, and he gets to play with MIG TIG GAS ARC without you buying the wrong machine !

That’s another valid point with TIG... having been taught by someone fully certified etc for doing critical welds for a nuclear reactor I’m quite lucky. As Nige says it’s easy to pick up bad habits (to be fair with both welding types) it’s not until you start playing with sectioning welds and polishing it you can see when you’ve missed catching the root and loosing penetration. Also these days with the likes of farcebook and Instaspam everyone is obsessed with getting the stacked daim look... which isn’t always the best way and something I’ve never seen in ~11 years in nuclear engineering. 

[FridgeFreezer]

31 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

Also these days with the likes of farcebook and Instaspam everyone is obsessed with getting the stacked daim look... which isn’t always the best way and something I’ve never seen in ~11 years in nuclear engineering. 

My general rule is the more showy and American any particular tutorial is, the less I trust it. That's why I like Justin at TFS, and Matt at Urchfab's welding guides are very good for real-world car work too.

[Landrover17H]

Well I bid on this to £560 and still DIDN'T win. These things hold their prices don't they?

 

I march on...

[steve b]

At that price you should seriously consider a good inverter eurotorch MIG plant , R-Tech have been recommended by more than a few people . I've used 200a inverter MIG plant in industrial on-site applications and they work (ESAB in my case )

 

Alternatively look at Cebora transformer unit's , they manufacture for several bigger Brand names in the 160-200a range . A trawl round your local garages and Fab units might unearth something too ? 

Steve

[Ed Poore]

I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest why not just picking up a Clarke machine? They're actually quite nice machines for the price - I picked up my 130EN (gas and gasless) for £100 including helmet and gloves and to be honest I've built some stupid heavy stuff with it.

This was the most recent - the vast majority of that was done late at night on 0.6mm wire with the wire speed wound up because my 0.8mm wire had hidden itself away and I was on a time crunch with a 260kg sheet of steel supposed to have been delivered the following morning. Quick hitch brackets were gouged out of 20mm steel. Admittedly I did finish it off by teaching myself to stick weld because I ran out of gas... 

I've been doing more and more heavy gauge stuff (perhaps even thicker than Nige style fabrication ) and been wondering about getting a more powerful unit.

If he gets on with the MIG then you can save your pennies for a more expensive / better TIG where I think you'll notice much more return for your money on the quality of the unit.

[steve b]

Clarke used to be made by Cebora iirc . 

schlep round the local garages - many are moving away from welding anything due to regulation , insurance , and most pertinent  , it always takes longer than estimated . 

cheers

Steve b

[Troy S. Privette]

it is awesome that he is doing such level job in this age. if you want guide him completely then you need to do it step by step otherwise some safety related steps might be missed. 

[Landrover17H]

Thanks gents, it  occurs to me to buy a Clarke cheapy too. I don't relish  finding more than £5-600 because from your words, it's clear, ancillaries too, it won't end there. If a Clarke 130EN  can be had for a fraction, and kinda does the job, then I wonder. Only buy good, buy once is my usual rule..

As I said, my concern was buying utter shonk would limit him before his ability does, but you all seem to think you can learn well enough on quite basic stuff?

Minded to this being a 14YO's Xmas prezzy, there's all sorts of safety issues here, but I'm not worried. Agreed it's a fair distance away from angle-grinders and blow-lamps, yet he manages that stuff better than many an adult.  My only concern is here, I don't weld, so can't truly guide him. But we'll get there. The way I see this, he has more years to learn...

 

It hurts now, but truth is, this stuff seems to hold its price. If I spend £500 on new stuff, it's worth £2-300 next week. If I buy used for the same, it'll be worth what I paid, and if I buy 'right' likely £800 when new, so better anyway.

I've started early. If I can't find a used bit of kit, the back-up plan is to follow your words and get him one of these...

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Landrover17H

[steve b]

That looks perfect , he will not be held back with that in the workshop . If it will run a 4m torch all the better . what rollers come with it ? 0.6mm/0.8mm/1.0mm vee rollers and 1.0mm aluminium type ( semi-circular drive groove) should cover everything . 

5%ArCO2 mix for steel and a bag of steel offcuts and you won't see him until January 😊

cheers

Steve b

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Seriously phone up R Tech say Nige @ Megasquirt said if I ask you very very nicely he said you might give me a little discount on the above ...

 

 

Great guys to deal with and I have sent a few peeps there way and have given them either some freebies or a bit of discount

 

The warranty they give is worth buying from them 101% IMHO

Nige

 

 

[Landrover17H]

Yes, against my usual stance, I'm coming round to the idea of buying new and taking the hit. Simply because, not welding myself,  I could easily buy a dog of a thing and not know it. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Landrover17H

[HoSS]

+1 for migwelding.co.uk plenty of advice and second hand sales also

 

[Gazzar]

16 hours ago, HoSS said:

+1 for migwelding.co.uk plenty of advice and second hand sales also

 

Agreed.

[Landrover17H]

Thanks gents, I'll keep you posted.

 

Quote

 

it is awesome that he is doing such level job in this age.

This boy has been brought into this world, with as far as I can manage, a childhood closer to our generation's than his own. Hence with another boy, he's built go-karts and tree-camps etc, and gone for miles on his bike. All aided and abetted by me and a like-minded father.  Sadly aside from his friend, I've not seen boys of his generation do this.

His mother used to fight this, yet  finally sees the light. It took some convincing, but she now finds virtue in cuts and grazes, torn trousers, and bruised-knees. They are the by-product of what else goes on. She and another mother finally grasps the mantra...

"He's a boy, he's supposed to be filthy."

No 'Trendy Wendy' Health and Safety, star-chart sh*t for this kid, (and god-luv-him, his friend). Most adults couldn't fix a puncture on a bike, this boy was doing his at 10-11.

Sadly the majority of kids aren't even allowed out. I just don't get it. A tiring day is sorted by early-to-bed and a bath.

In short, this I vow... and I don't need to push it on him - by his fifteenth birthday, he'll be welding to equal a few  of you. As I said, will keep you posted.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Landrover17H

[HoSS]

7 hours ago, Landrover17H said:

No 'Trendy Wendy' Health and Safety, star-chart sh*t for this kid, (and god-luv-him, his friend). Most adults couldn't fix a puncture on a bike, this boy was doing his at 10-11.

 

Good on you. Most of the young engineers we see now at work are pure theory, they never used a lathe at school,and  they dont know how to design stuff because they dont have the skills to build anything.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

7 hours ago, Landrover17H said:

 

"He's a boy, he's supposed to be filthy."

No 'Trendy Wendy' Health and Safety, star-chart sh*t for this kid, (and god-luv-him, his friend). Most adults couldn't fix a puncture on a bike, this boy was doing his at 10-11.

 

and his life skills will be the envy of many and highly likely make him all the better person for them

 

Top marks to you !

[Stellaghost]

45 minutes ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said:

and his life skills will be the envy of many and highly likely make him all the better person for 

Good for him ....he only has one big hurdle that could de-rail him in the future " his better halves whoever they may be " lol regards Stephen 

[mickeyw]

20 hours ago, HoSS said:

Good on you. Most of the young engineers we see now at work are pure theory, they never used a lathe at school,and  they dont know how to design stuff because they dont have the skills to build anything.

Exactly this. I've worked with electronic and mechanical engineering post-graduates and they have bu66er all experience in anything. The electronics guys have no idea how to solder a PCB never mind a simple wire joint. The mechanical guys would design me something strong enough but have no idea how to make it.

My childhood involvement with steam engineering, building cars with banger racing teams, farming, then a toolmaking apprenticeship has stood me in good stead to live in real world

[missingsid]

Great that you are teaching your son skills for the future, maybe he will become a great car restorer or customiser?

Don't know if it has been said before, ensure he understands about the health risks,

Arc Eye is the most unpleasant and painfull injury that cannot be treated it just needs to time towear off, you won't sleep, open or closed will hurt. It is very easy to get by "helping" someone weld or "just adding a tack" without a helmet on. You will see it on TV in "professional" car shops so is common. DON'T do it it is a really bad habit to get in to. Yes I've had it twice. According to a mate who is a professional welder, welders don't get cataracts as the UV burns them off?

Less of a problem but happens is arc "sun burn", even through light clothes (T-shirt) it will give you a mildly painful "tan".

 

Of all my jobs my favourite was my second one, Prototype Wireman in R&D. Although we had a small machine shop with staff they would let me loose in the shop for urgent small jobs and my LR dashboard!!

I also got to play with the companies PDP11 at lunch time for Dungeons and Dragons at age 22.

 

 

[HoSS]

At age 11 I made a go-kart out of an old pedal go-kart and a brigg & stratton mower engine, only problem was due to not understanding gearing, it only went 5 mph

[Landrover17H]

Quote

ensure he understands about the health risks,

Arc Eye is the most unpleasant and painfull injury that cannot be treated it just needs to time towear off, you won't sleep, open or closed will hurt. It is very easy to get by "helping" someone weld or "just adding a tack" without a helmet on. You will see it on TV in "professional" car shops so is common. DON'T do it it is a really bad habit to get in to. Yes I've had it twice. According to a mate who is a professional welder, welders don't get cataracts as the UV burns them off?

Less of a problem but happens is arc "sun burn", even through light clothes (T-shirt) it will give you a mildly painful "tan".

 

Thank you all. And thanks for a quicky precis of the H&S issues. I do remember getting arc-eye back in the day, and had forgotten how quick it happens, and how  long-lasting its effect.  A salutary reminder.

He'll be done-up to-the-nines in kit. He's given free-licence for almost anything, which means he doesn't actually bother. This actually brings it better, ie he's extremely respectful for with knowing when he simply MUST do as bid. What to be doing and WHY! He's left on trust, which instills him a self-belief. His DT Teacher has worked this out too, and unlike the other kids, just lets him get on with it.

 

But on the broader point, where are we going to get the next generation of engineers and the properly skilled? I knwo a college lecturer near me. He trains Motor Mechs, and was telling me most in his classes are sh*t. I put this question to him:

"How many in the class of thirty would you be happy to be let loose on your car?"

He said, "One, maybe two of them"

And the other 28 are  snapped-up by a dealership near you. They're in short supply. Frightening  isn't it?

Edited September 9, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Troy S. Privette]

On 9/1/2020 at 9:35 PM, Troy S. Privette said:

it is awesome that he is doing such level job in this age. if you want guide him completely then you need to do it step by step otherwise some safety related steps might be missed. 

As i have mentioned previously Here you can find these awesome steps to guide your small man completely. It will be highly helpful for him as well as for you. 

[Landrover17H]

Thanks for that Troy, that was to be my next question. Better get him decent safety-kit. Out of the blue he hit upon the idea of spraying a tatty toolbox trailer I have, and the result made me chuckle. I'll put that, and pics of the er... outcome in another thread.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Landrover17H

[Landrover17H]

Well Xmas came and thanks to your help,  I got him an RTech 180 MIG. Complete with RTech visor/gloves et al. I've found a just-retired welder in the next town willing to impart his knowledge for a few pennies, so the boy is set. He's just turned 15. Now to wait for COVID to die back a bit, and the lad can start lessons. Meantime, I've got to source gas.

 

Thanks again gents.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Landrover17H

[elbekko]

I like those R-Tech units, and almost bought one a few months ago, but they'd require a separate electrical feed to be put in, as they puzzlingly don't offer anything 3-phase outside of the very expensive industrial units...

Hope your lad has fun with it!