How much !?

[Anderzander]

I’ve read online of someone who put a deposit on a new Defender because he thought the Grenadier would be more money ... 

What would you expect a 110 equivalent to cost ? (Inc. VAT)

 

[elbekko]

Think I saw 50k somewhere.

[mickeyw]

 I've not read too much on this topic, but are they planning a long and short wheelbase version? 

Considering that it is intended to be more utilitarian than the new Defender I would hope it'll be a good bit cheaper. I can't see it selling too well otherwise.

If you can get a LWB station wagon for £35 to £40k it might stand a chance.

[SteveG]

I thought I read that’s it’s going to be early 40’s plus VAT and will be classed as a commercial vehicle. Can’t see that somehow, given that it’s clearly set up as a passenger vehicle. No doubt they’ll do a commercial vehicle too.

So, if above is correct, it’s going to be about £50K in Uk- seems a bit much to me. Not compared to Defender, but I think that’s overpriced too. 😉

[reb78]

They led us on about where it would be built, I suspect the same will be true about the price... I reckon it will end up being priced as a cheap G Wagen...

Edited September 10, 2020 by reb78

[jeremy996]

For me to be willing to buy the damn thing it needs to start at less than £40k including taxes. The last time I costed a LR110CSW with tow pack and some toys was £37k. I'd like it to be much less, but then I'd like castles in Spain too. I'm hoping the finished product will be more polished than a Defender from the off and I can add trim, luxury and accessories over time. I want a durable vehicle I can keep for decades, not PCP and replace at the end of every warranty!

Ineos have consistently said it will be "competitive", so competitive with what? A new G wagen is £90k+, a Dacia Duster is £18.5k for 4WD, an L200 £22k+, a Ford Ranger £23-32k+.

I expect that the Grenadier won't be pitched as 'cheap', as that would be commercial suicide, but the pricing question for any series production is always the hardest; expect to sell a lot and it should be cheaper to make, only expect to sell a few, then it needs to be "premium".

[Retroanaconda]

I would expect it to be priced just under the new Defender. They are after the same market after all - lifestyle and leisure users rather than those needing working vehicles.

Commercial and utility buyers will continue to go for 4x4 pickups for the most part, and for the same reason that they abandoned the Land Rover in droves - they will do 95% of what the LR will do but with more comfort, better reliability, and for a cheaper price. The only benefits the LR’s had (outside that 5% of outright off-road ability) were residual values and towing capacity, but most of the pickups do 3,500kgs now anyway. 

[Anderzander]

2 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

Commercial and utility buyers will continue to go for 4x4 pickups for the most part, and for the same reason that they abandoned the Land Rover in droves - they will do 95% of what the LR will do but with more comfort, better reliability, and for a cheaper price. The only benefits the LR’s had (outside that 5% of outright off-road ability) were residual values and towing capacity, but most of the pickups do 3,500kgs now anyway. 

Ignoring your first assertion there for the moment 😊

..... if the Ineos will do 105% of what the 4x4 pickups will do - whilst being as comfortable, as reliable, with the same towing capacity, and at a similar price with higher re-sale ..... then it will be interesting to see what that does to the current market share.

And on that first point - I think the above is what they are going for in addition to the lifestyle/leisure crew.  

Just as it is with the old Defender now.

[Snagger]

I think they need to pitch the price a little below the Pretender to appear competitive.  We know the vehicles are in principle for different markets, the LR competing with the Discovery and Jaguar (because the LR senior management and board are imbeciles), while the Grenadier is going to compete more with Toyota, Nissan and a few others of that type.  There will be some overlap, so being cheaper will help there, but I think the psychology of marketing it as a no-frills working vehicle will demand that it is priced lower than the Gucci Pretender, or it won’t be seen as a genuine working vehicle.

[Mo Murphy]

With a brand new untested vehicle from a brand new untested vehicle manufacturer, fleet buyers will be wary of it, I think. It will have to be priced very cheaply, at least initially, to get their attention.

Mo

[SteveG]

I think it must be me getting old, but I just think all of the LR products are overpriced and unappealing. 
 

I gave up buying them ages ago, so I’m not really qualified to judge, but I find they’re not much value compared to estates for a vehicle that for me spends practically all it’s time on road. For the last ten years my three new purchases have alternated between Skoda and Mercedes. Mainly because the Superb and E-class estates are the biggest on the market, so plenty of room for the two dogs. The first was 4x4 superb 2L diesel, then E-class 2L diesel RWD, then the latest, 18 months ago, is a 1.5 petrol superb FWD. All were bought with approximately 20% off list price. All three have been reliable, not one single issue. 
 

None of them set the pulse racing, but equally they’re extremely accomplished at what they do, comfortable, easy to drive, good mpg, and all the gizmos and plenty of passenger and boot space. The latest is the least desirable as I’m not a fan of FWD, but the 1.5 petrol is surprisingly good. After the Merc, I changed tack in an attempt to not keep buying new, and went for a 4.6 lpg P38, which after fixing the brakes all round, air suspension compressor and valve block and a few other small jobs when I got it, was completely reliable for 8 months. But, my wife couldn’t get on with lpg, as we didn’t have any nearby garages, to make it convenient to fill up, so I went for the easy option and went for new again and picked the Superb. I was going to go for a 4x4 again, but they were all factory order, 4-5 months, so picked up the 1.5 in top spec for about £25K. (The 4x4 superb and merc were both about £33K each)

So for the cost of a base spec New Defender I can have what I use today, and then you’d have £20K free to spend on whatever for off road fun. The only thing I can think of where the New Defender would be an advantage on road, is the 3-4 times it’s flooded here in the last year. With the estates you have to take a 5-10 minute detour, whereas in the Defender you could drive straight through it, but that’s about it.
 

cheers, Steve 

 

[Bowie69]

32 minutes ago, SteveG said:

I think it must be me getting old, but I just think all of the LR products are overpriced and unappealing. 

No, not old, you, like many others just appreciate that splurging close to 100K on a vehicle that will be worth 10% of that in 10 years time is nuts.

I mean, who spends 10K p.a. on a vehicle, for what reason? Points scoring at the local sports club? I'm afraid I am over that... and realise there are far more important things to chase after.

[Anderzander]

2 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

With a brand new untested vehicle from a brand new untested vehicle manufacturer, fleet buyers will be wary of it, I think. It will have to be priced very cheaply, at least initially, to get their attention.

Mo

Perhaps that’s where the BMW engine helps.

[Mo Murphy]

51 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

Perhaps that’s where the BMW engine helps.

Perhaps.

The proof of the pudding is in the orders !

Time will tell.

Mo

[Peaklander]

8 hours ago, Snagger said:

(because the LR senior management and board are imbeciles),

I like to read your posts as most are very informative. However you are not always correct and tarring all the JLR board with the same brush is insulting. 

[Snagger]

Fair enough - there will be some smart folk there.  I just can’t see how the board collectively let JLR get to a point where they have so many models that the market can’t differentiate, are competing primarily with themselves and fell so far behind on the EV shift.  Not many managers or board members can individually change the course of the company, but the bulk of them must be asleep at the wheel to permit so much product confusion, parallel logistics costs and failure to read the market occur.

[reb78]

Afraid I agree with Snagger. They brought the Velar out and I thought it looked so much like the F Pace at the time that it was hard to tell them apart - direct competition within the same company. The new Defender and the D5 do the same thing by competing with the same market as each other. So do the Evoque and the Freelander Discovery Sport (they nearly fooled me with that one... not!). It seems really foolish... so many models competing within the same company and not with the rivals!

Edited September 11, 2020 by reb78

[Mo Murphy]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

I like to read your posts as most are very informative. However you are not always correct and tarring all the JLR board with the same brush is insulting. 

Oh I don't know, Peaklander.

Mo

[Snagger]

I saw a couple of Velars the other day parked together at the airport.  They looked very smart, but even as a LR enthusiast, I didn’t realise what model they were until I read the badging.  If enthusiasts of the marque can’t identify the cars, then what chance for the main market?

[reb78]

3 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I saw a couple of Velars the other day parked together at the airport.  They looked very smart, but even as a LR enthusiast, I didn’t realise what they were until I read the badging.  If enthusiasts of the marque can’t identify the cars, then what chance for the main market?

We aren't the enthusiasts that the marque wants anymore though....

[Snagger]

Too true, Reb.  Too true.

[Mo Murphy]

18 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I saw a couple of Velars the other day parked together at the airport.  They looked very smart, but even as a LR enthusiast, I didn’t realise what they were until I read the badging.  If enthusiasts of the marque can’t identify the cars, then what chance for the main market?

Exactly Snagger, gone are the days of the distinctive defender, discovery, Range Rover and even the Freelander when a Land Rover model stood out from the others and others tried to emulate. Now it's the reverse, if that's good modern management then bring back the old !

Regrettably I'm pretty sure the next large car manufacturer to go under will be Land Rover.

Mo

 

[Snagger]

1 minute ago, Mo Murphy said:

Exactly Snagger, gone are the days of the distinctive defender, discovery, Range Rover and even the Freelander when a Land Rover model stood out from the others and others tried to emulate. Now it's the reverse, if that good modern management then bring back the old !

Regrettably I'm pretty sure the next large car manufacturer to go under will be Land Rover.

Mo

 

The Ford Explorers here look strikingly like modern LRs from the front and side.

Tata and JLR have been making excuses for a little while now and went begging to the government.  While I don’t want to see the staff suffer, I also don’t see JLR as being a prudent investment from the government.  Their situation is self inflicted, perusing a narrow part of the market of purely prestige vehicles, without any regard for how vulnerable that would make them in downturns, now here, and of course they have been blaming Brexit for years even though no trading matters have changed yet during the transition period.  They are as badly managed as in the BL days.  Then there is the Tata board infighting and fraud...

[Mo Murphy]

Is Indian management as good as the quality of their manufactured goods ?

Mo

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

The Ford Explorers here look strikingly like modern LRs from the front and side.

Tata and JLR have been making excuses for a little while now and went begging to the government.  While I don’t want to see the staff suffer, I also don’t see JLR as being a prudent investment from the government.  Their situation is self inflicted, perusing a narrow part of the market of purely prestige vehicles, without any regard for how vulnerable that would make them in downturns, now here, and of course they have been blaming Brexit for years even though no trading matters have changed yet during the transition period.  They are as badly managed as in the BL days.  Then there is the Tata board infighting and fraud...

https://www.car-revs-daily.com/2014/07/09/paging-dr-gerry-mcgovern-there-is-a-ford-explorer-sport-here-to-see-you/amp/

Only differences in the D5 and the explorer is the front grill and the engine range

F Pace is the Velar