How much !?

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

Is Indian management as good as the quality of their manufactured goods ?

Mo

Mostly more bent than a bendy thing, with the finest qualifications money can buy, unless they’re qualifications from known foreign institutions.

[Peaklander]

Maybe the moderators could open a ‘slag off Tata/JLR’ thread. Then elsewhere we could have sensible debate all the time and anyone who wants to moan, groan, gripe or slag them off can do so in the corner. They could even have as many likes available as they want.
 

I know several ex colleagues and friends who are working their butts off at JLR to improve manufacturing and quality. They have been successful elsewhere and have a huge task now at JLR. They don’t do design, so can’t be blamed for the product. Even in the most senior positions it isn’t possible to steer the ship or change course on your own. 

[Mo Murphy]

On 9/11/2020 at 4:48 PM, Peaklander said:

Maybe the moderators could open a ‘slag off Tata/JLR’ thread. Then elsewhere we could have sensible debate all the time and anyone who wants to moan, groan, gripe or slag them off can do so in the corner. They could even have as many likes available as they want.
 

I know several ex colleagues and friends who are working their butts off at JLR to improve manufacturing and quality. They have been successful elsewhere and have a huge task now at JLR. They don’t do design, so can’t be blamed for the product. Even in the most senior positions it isn’t possible to steer the ship or change course on your own. 

Or maybe a fanboy thread where people only say nice warm cuddly things about Tata/JLR.

It's a discussion forum Peaklander, people are going to write things you don't agree with, get used to it. 

Now fetch your Teddy out of the corner and accept some people are not going to agree with you or have the same views.

Mo

[Anderzander]

Let’s aim to disagree without being rude .....

[Peaklander]

I know how to live in the big world @Mo Murphy I am bored with the constant bleating about JLR. Hell we can’t even have a discussion in this thread about the price of the Grenadier without the same old snipes and gripes about JLR. So sad. 

[Mo Murphy]

@Peaklander

Like it or not the Grenadier exists because of what many here consider to be poor decision making by JLRs management TEAM.

Now let's agree to disagree, I can sense @Anderzander twitching from here.

Mo

[Snagger]

13 hours ago, Peaklander said:

I know how to live in the big world @Mo Murphy I am bored with the constant bleating about JLR. Hell we can’t even have a discussion in this thread about the price of the Grenadier without the same old snipes and gripes about JLR. So sad. 

What do you expect from a group of people who have been loyal supporters of a marque that boasts about its ruggedness and resilience solely because of the enthusiasts’ dedication in keeping those vehicles going year after year, decade after decade, and then not only kicks those supporters by ending production of essential parts and ripping them off on prices of parts they do continue, but then insult them by using the name of the most revered model on something that is a perversion of the legacy?
 

You also need to differentiate that when people slag off an organisation, it’s a criticism of that organisation collectively, not every member of staff individually.  For Christ’s sake, folk love to slag off Ryanair, but most of the staff were decent and extremely hard working - they aren’t responsible for management decisions and have to put up with all the consequences of those, but that doesn’t excuse the nature of the company or its policies.  Same here - most of the staff at JLR will be decent, hard working folk, probably irritated at what they see as deeply damaging management decisions, and your friends will be having to deal with that.  But your friendship with some employees there doesn’t mean that JLR or Tata are making rational, responsible business decisions, and nobody is holding junior managers, shop floor staff or even individual senior managers (other than CEO, head of market research and McGovern) individually responsible.

[elbekko]

There's a big difference between having a proper grounded argument, and just spouting the same useless tripe in every barely related thread.

[Peaklander]

This is spoiling my trip. I have never ever said that I disagree with your views of the direction JLR have taken. Ever.

i have reacted because you @Snagger referred to senior management as imbeciles. I think that collective description is offensive. Yes I do know people there and one or two are very very senior. They are not imbeciles.

@Mo Murphy accuses me of throwing a teddy and you are lecturing me about all the reasons why you despise JLR now.

So go back and read my posts and you will see.
 

@elbekko is correct that you are spoiling threads such as this with your constant sniping.

@Anderzander apologies from me that this went off on a tangent. 
 

I am going to go back now and sit next my 110 and enjoy the view of the sea and mountains.

[Mo Murphy]

17 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

This is spoiling my trip. I have never ever said that I disagree with your views of the direction JLR have taken. Ever.

i have reacted because you @Snagger referred to senior management as imbeciles. I think that collective description is offensive. Yes I do know people there and one or two are very very senior. They are not imbeciles.

@Mo Murphy accuses me of throwing a teddy and you are lecturing me about all the reasons why you despise JLR now.

So go back and read my posts and you will see.
 

@elbekko is correct that you are spoiling threads such as this with your constant sniping.

@Anderzander apologies from me that this went off on a tangent. 
 

I am going to go back now and sit next my 110 and enjoy the view of the sea and mountains.

You're answering my post twice !

Lecturing indeed. You Sir, are attempting to provoke an argument despite the moderators attempt to cool the thread.

I'll continue to voice my opinions and I'll not be censored by pompous buffoons like you !

Mo

[Peaklander]

I give up. Provoking an argument is last thing I want to do.

[Snagger]

Given the jeopardy that the senior managers and board have collectively put their staff in, they deserve to be offended.  They’ll likely be getting bonuses while others get redundancy, all because those charged with the ultimate decisions utterly fail to see what they’re doing or what was happening in the market.  That is incompetence and hubris.    It doesn’t mean every individual in management and the board is guilty of that, but most of the directors and board must be or they’d have intervened.  It killed BL and so many other brands, and is killing JLR while they lie about the cause, citing an event that hasn’t happened yet.

[Mo Murphy]

36 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

I give up. Provoking an argument is last thing I want to do.

Wonderful, let's go back to agreeing to disagree 👍

Mo

[Nonimouse]

Why would Land Rover SMT think about the enthusiasts in any way shape or form? What reason have they? They are running a low volume, high end, high price car company. That's what they do. Defender didn't make money, simples. The retained market for it is tiny and although JLR are a low volume company, they are one of the largest, So producing a low volume, high build cost vehicle is a pointless exercise. Where they went wrong is not selling the production line to James Ratcliffe and tying him up in a nice contract. So the image of Defender still exists. Then they could have called New Defender Discovery 5, called Discovery 5 'new pointless piece of carp that goes wrong all the time'. Sorted

 

No point in arguing about it. It's not that emotive

[Anderzander]

So ...  Moderation to me means housekeeping - we are all adults and no one died from being offended, but I don’t think we should be offensive to each other either. We have more in common than not.

So I would suggest that we either wrap it all up here or I do some housekeeping - and maybe that is moving a load of this out to a thread to discuss the management of JLR.

[Stellaghost]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

So ...  Moderation to me means housekeeping - we are all adults and no one died from being offended, but I don’t think we should be offensive to each other either. We have more in common than not.

So I would suggest that we either wrap it all up here or I do some housekeeping - and maybe that is moving a load of this out to a thread to discuss the management of JLR.

Totally agree it needs to stop before the forum gets a bad rep regards Stephen

[jeremy996]

I expect to buy one and the price is not the most important consideration as I would expect to keep it for decades. (Although over £40k will make it too costly and I will have to go secondhand*). For a few years I have been trying to follow "reduce, reuse, recycle", so I want to buy fewer manufactured goods but of a higher quality/ease of maintanence/longevity.

I bought a Durite toaster; it was 5 x the price of a usual toaster but so far it has lasted 17 years instead of 18 months to 2 years, (and I can still buy spares). It is the chrome deco classic one - the plastic ones are not so great. I'd really like the equivalent as a vehicle, but such a thing does not exist.

My Land Rovers are both old, '89 and '91, but even careful fettling cannot address the design drawbacks and the age of the underlying components; finding a 200Tdi head is no longer easy. JLR have made a commercial decision not to cater for me with the new Defender and I can understand why; in 30 years they might sell me one new! Their target market are likely to buy/lease one every 3-4 years at increasing levels of complexity and luxury. I do not fancy one as a used vehicle as I do not see them as built to last, (30+ years), and they certainly are not intended to be serviced outside the dealer network. (Most "ordinary" people, in contrast to "car nuts", treat vehicles as a closed box/white goods; fault = dealer or scrap yard).

Fundimentally, I feel that mass consumption with obsolesence is not for me; I like the trappings of modern life, but I would like to reduce my overall impact on the world around me. The Grenadier could be perfect; designed for a hard life, but given a gentler one, so hopefully lasting longer. So long as the promises of easy maintanence come to pass, this should work for me.

 

*I'm really not crazy about buying secondhand. My Land Rovers were bought used and job 1 was fix the bodges from the previous owners/deal with the original hard usage. I'd rather buy new and maintain it properly.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

On 9/13/2020 at 12:12 PM, Anderzander said:

Let’s aim to disagree without being rude .....

 

[geoffbeaumont]

On 9/15/2020 at 4:40 PM, jeremy996 said:

I bought a Durite toaster; it was 5 x the price of a usual toaster but so far it has lasted 17 years instead of 18 months to 2 years, (and I can still buy spares). It is the chrome deco classic one - the plastic ones are not so great. I'd really like the equivalent as a vehicle, but such a thing does not exist.

Some of that's down to deliberately manufacturing things not to last - old cheap white goods could be a gamble, but many lasted well and most lasted longer than current products. Our toaster is a budget white plastic thing - my wife had it years before I met her, but I believe it's past it's quarter century.

[missingsid]

The majority of new car buyers (company car. lease, those with disposable income etc.) will get rid of it before its first MOT. The dealers will only be interested in selling secondhand up until the warranty runs out and definately not after the extended warranty runs out.

Example of lifetime, LRs sealed for life Disco 3 gearbox, life is 80,000 miles to LR.

Governments particularly Eruo dont want cars over 14 years old on the roads citing modern recyclability, but ignoring CO2 build cost.

[Nonimouse]

On 9/15/2020 at 4:40 PM, jeremy996 said:

 

I bought a Durite toaster; it was 5 x the price of a usual toaster but so far it has lasted 17 years instead of 18 months to 2 years, (and I can still buy spares). It is the chrome deco classic one - the plastic ones are not so great. I'd really like the equivalent as a vehicle, but such a thing does not exist.

 

I've got one of these. Odd thing, only does three pieces of toast! It was a wedding present in 2002. I've recently had to fit a new timer. Easy and straightforward. I like it, a lot

[Blanco]

1995 my Duralit toaster and still going strong, I hope they still make them up to scratch!

[deep]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:22 PM, Mo Murphy said:

With a brand new untested vehicle from a brand new untested vehicle manufacturer, fleet buyers will be wary of it, I think. It will have to be priced very cheaply, at least initially, to get their attention.

Mo

I can't see fleet buyers taking large scale risks. It would need a year or two to be sure the Grenadier isn't a dud (I can't imagine it would be but history is more accurate than the average psychic).  It could be that they produce pared-down fleet versions if there is a demand.  That would be interesting.  

Then again, I used to work for a government department.  They bought from a Japanese manufacturer via a stores board contract.  The vehicles were fundamentally poor anyway and the pared-down versions were dreadful but we sold them at three years old for the price paid new!  Pricing is a strange thing...

[jeremy996]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:04 PM, deep said:

.............. I used to work for a government department.  They bought from a Japanese manufacturer via a stores board contract.  The vehicles were fundamentally poor anyway and the pared-down versions were dreadful but we sold them at three years old for the price paid new!  Pricing is a strange thing...

I used to do the fleet accounting for a large insurance broker; the discounts you could get for 5-100 of the same car and specification were eye-opening. It would start at 10% of retail and could get to 70% of retail if the manufacturer wanted rid of them or wanted them "placed" in a suitable environment. At one point all of our middle management had fast Fords like Serria Cosworth saloons as the insurance cost for most motorists were astronomical, so our discounts were huge, (dates it nicely!). We self-insured with stop-loss cover, so as long as we could keep claims within reasonable bounds our costs were manageable. People were sacked for crashing too many company cars, sent on driving courses or, if prolific sales staff, given a chauffeur and a big Jag or later Lexus.

Once we were taken over by Inchcape, everyone had to have something from the Toyota fold, (at a lessor discount), so we had a lot of early Lexus, Rav4s and the big Carina E.