AWDC - any members here?

[najw]

i don't have a problem with scrutineering as long as the "sensible" rule applies.

Failing because of a sticker is a bit daft.

No one failed because of a sticker, competitors were asked to remove or cover their 'Ban Scorpion Racing' stickers out of respect for the sponsor. I could quote the MSA line but won't bother at the mo

mine has failed because the black(negative) lead to the battery wasnot yellow, apparently it must be yellow so that the marshall knows which one to cut when the vehicle is upside down. I did point out to him that yellow is +ve on a winch and that there was an engine/power kill switch in the dash but he did not want to test that. Also it was a bit,Infact, impossible to get the bonnet open with the vehicle upside down as the hilift fits on the bottom of the windscreen roll cage bar and the bonnet wont open unless it is removed first.I put some yellow tape round the terminal and he was happy. He also pointed out that there was not a 2nd spring on the throttle, there was, but not where he wanted it, so i got one out to fit and he told me it was not important it could be done for the next event. Either it is required or not.

Also how/where do they record that the vehicle has failed and been rectified? I could go to an AWDC event fail scrutineering on a recommendation then turn up with out it done for the next one who would know.?

I would also question the position of the scrutineer. If he passes a avehicle as safe and it subsequently rolls over and the cage fails presumably he would have some liability.

One thing i noticed on the AWDC events was the lack of log booking. My series is fully logged booked for both comp safaria and CCV trials by the ARC. The cage has been inspected, the wall thickness of the tube checked, the mountings for the cage to the chassis have been checked that the conform to a standard acceptable to the MSA/ARC.

At the AWDC no one checked the cage/mounts/chassis they just looked under the bonnet laughed and stuck a scrap iron sticker on.

Not sure which event you were at (or who you are) all our vehicles have a scrutineering sheet/log book for the year, failures are recorded and re-checked at the next event. We also use the same two scrutineers (who are MSA licensed) to ensure consistency from event to event. As there is no requirement for a roll cage in our events, there is no need to check dimensions etc.

We don't stick stickers on vehicles to indicate scrutineering complete (unless you are talking about the number boards)

Also if a ARC vehicle rolls on a CCV stage it must be rescrutineered, It can then be deemed safe/unsafe etc and the log book marked accordingly.

I think that for a winch challenge event it should take in excess of 15 mins to check each vehicle, Spool out the cable and check it, check and make sure that recovery points are to a safe standard (ADD another 15 mins if it is a mile marker to put the cable back in). Check all the kit to be used is plated and safe.

Then check the cage if present, against all the varying rules and regs based on when the cage was built.

I would also suggest that the punches are then graded to ensure that a punch is "safe" for that vehicle Cage/lack of cage. This is not based on ability of the vehicle but scrutineering and insurance has now said that it is ok for that vehicle to compete/take part without any restrictions.

Don't see how this is feasible when conditions can change so quickly during the day, at Bampton it would have been a case of gradually re-classifying punches as the rain continued and the ground got worse

I know the argument would be "Dont attempt anything that you are not comfortable with" however the slipperyness at bampton on sunday made anything but the main track "un safe" and potentially dangerous.

I have not written this to be a party pooper but more to get the disussion going.

Paul

[TJ101]

Regs for 2006 are Challenge Regs

Same a Paul (V8camel)" i don't have a problem with scrutineering as long as the "sensible" rule applies" been doing it for years with the rallying !! but years ago they were "sensible" but not anymore!

With the current challenge regs, they are at present, ok !! but for how long ??

I would have a few problems with the current rules, i.e. side exhaust, roll cage interpretation, for a soft top, Helmets , another cut off switch, but all am sure can be overcome !!

[will_warne]

At all AWDC (and other MSA sanctioned) events the competitors sign-on an official MSA sheet that absolves the organisers and officials of liability

I know its a bit off topic but, out of interest, is this worded to cover spectators? Say an unrated shackle is passed and then fails later in the day causing a spectator fatality. Potentially this could leave the sctuteneer and organiser liable. Not a position anyone wants to be in.

[V8CAMEL]

regarding the sticker as an example would the person have been allowed to compete without removing it?

[Mark90]

I was told the sticker had to be removed if I wanted to compete.

It's the picky little things that can put people off scruntineered events. Like having to tie the end of the CB whip down in case it has someones eye out. It's 9 feet of the ground FFS! However that was more important than bothering to check the loaction of my battery and whether it's properly secured, colour coding of earth connections, does the winch cut off work, condition of winch rope, condition and suitability of stops/ropes/shackles/snatch blocks/etc.

Oh well that's done it now, I'll be scrutineered with a fine tooth comb (and latex gloves no doubt ) next time

[V8CAMEL]

I was told the sticker had to be removed if I wanted to compete.

It's the picky little things that can put people off scruntineered events. Like having to tie the end of the CB whip down in case it has someones eye out. It's 9 feet of the ground FFS! However that was more important than bothering to check the loaction of my battery and whether it's properly secured, colour coding of earth connections, does the winch cut off work, condition of winch rope, condition and suitability of stops/ropes/shackles/snatch blocks/etc.

Oh well that's done it now, I'll be scrutineered with a fine tooth comb (and latex gloves no doubt ) next time

thats the point i was trying to get across. The Easy things to pick on are done. The more important safety bits seem to be passed over very quickly if at all.

i would have thought that all intended winch replacement parts ie cables or plasma were checked. I know that none of my shackles,strops,ropes etc were checked only did i have them.

i think that i should paint the series as a Scrap iron nothanks sticker and then enter

paul

[Mark90]

I never did understand what the problem was with protesting against the cruel sport of loster racing

[najw]

regarding the sticker as an example would the person have been allowed to compete without removing it?

I don't see what the big deal is here about the sticker.

We have a very generous sponsor, it is disrespectful to compete in an event that someone is providing prizes (and a very susbstantial barbeque at this event for all involved) when you are displaying a sticker which suggests they should be forced out of business.

Realised who V8Camel is now

[najw]

I know its a bit off topic but, out of interest, is this worded to cover spectators? Say an unrated shackle is passed and then fails later in the day causing a spectator fatality. Potentially this could leave the sctuteneer and organiser liable. Not a position anyone wants to be in.

Wording is as follows

I acknowledge that I understand the nature and type of the competition and the potential risk inherent with motor sport and agree to accept that risk. Further I understand that all persons having any connection with the promotion and/or organisation and/or conduct of the event are insured against loss or injury caused through their negligence

Motorsport is Dangerous boards are also displayed at entrances to sites which advise visitors/spectators that they are present at their own risk.

[pugwash]

We have a very generous sponsor, it is disrespectful to compete in an event that someone is providing prizes (and a very susbstantial barbeque at this event for all involved) when you are displaying a sticker which suggests they should be forced out of business.

So what you're saying is that even though the competitors have paid to compete, because the sponsor has paid more then the competitors aren't allowed to show their disapproval of shoddy business practices? It's not the competitors fault that the people with the shoddy business practices happen to be the sponsors as well.

wow that's a hell of a step forward for free speach.

Scorpion are getting PR points off the back off those very competitors, in whic case why shouldn't some of the competitors show that they don't agree with Scorpion?

Scorpion have a choice from my point of view, either work hard to repair a very damaged reputation (caused completely by their own actions and sharp sales practices), or they stop trying to get PR off the back of challenge competitors by sponsoring an up and coming challenge event.

If scorpion want to pay the entry fees for all the challenge events, then they can dictate what people put on their vehicles, not before.

[najw]

So what you're saying is that even though the competitors have paid to compete, because the sponsor has paid more then the competitors aren't allowed to show their disapproval of shoddy business practices? It's not the competitors fault that the people with the shoddy business practices happen to be the sponsors as well.

wow that's a hell of a step forward for free speach.

Scorpion are getting PR points off the back off those very competitors, in whic case why shouldn't some of the competitors show that they don't agree with Scorpion?

Scorpion have a choice from my point of view, either work hard to repair a very damaged reputation (caused completely by their own actions and sharp sales practices), or they stop trying to get PR off the back of challenge competitors by sponsoring an up and coming challenge event.

If scorpion want to pay the entry fees for all the challenge events, then they can dictate what people put on their vehicles, not before.

No what I am saying is that it is disrespectful to drink someones beer, eat someones food, take someones prizes in return for advertising for their business to be boycotted.

What you need to understand here is that Scorpion Racing don't make the rules - none of them, not one. I do after consultation with other club committee members and the MSA - which is the governing body of motorsport in the UK.

Whatever your feelings about Scorpion is your business, if you feel that strongly don't associate yourself with them.

[V8CAMEL]

No what I am saying is that it is disrespectful to drink someones beer, eat someones food, take someones prizes in return for advertising for their business to be boycotted.

What you need to understand here is that Scorpion Racing don't make the rules - none of them, not one. I do after consultation with other club committee members and the MSA - which is the governing body of motorsport in the UK.

Whatever your feelings about Scorpion is your business, if you feel that strongly don't associate yourself with them.

I gave my prize back

well it was a years subscription to LRE

[dollythelw]

I think NAJW is doing an admirable job in a very tricky environment

in respect to series sponsorship and the neccessity to carry main sponsors stickers or banning stickers that are suitably disrespectful how about doing what other countries do? if you wont carry the main sponsors stickers or want to carry your own then you pay a proportionate amount extra on top of your entry

only a suggestion

[pugwash]

No what I am saying is that it is disrespectful to drink someones beer, eat someones food, take someones prizes in return for advertising for their business to be boycotted.

yes i'd totally agree with that- so you say take the sticker off or don't benefit from the sponsorship. I'd happily compete (if i got off my fat arse and bothered to build a vehicle that is) and not benefit from the sponsorship- after all the fun in wining is to win not get a prize!

Whatever your feelings about Scorpion is your business, if you feel that strongly don't associate yourself with them.

i feel strongly about scorpion, however i also fee quite strongly that i would like to support the AWDC. I am "hoping" to take part in the AWDC challenge events this year. From that point of view i would like to compete and pay my dues, but would rather not do it iwth any connection to scorpion.

Indeed Jez's suggestion is a good one- i would happily consider paying extra not to benefit from the scorpion sponsorship- would anyone else though?

[dollythelw]

They do it because lots of the cars that have major league financial backing and the vehicle sponsors want thier logos shown.......... unlike us, we dont even get discount on Hobnobs

[pugwash]

that's something i hadn't thought of.

my vehicle has to carry my corporate sponsors in very large print on the sides and bonnet of the vehicle else i don't get sponsored (well ok i do, but i won't get the tax relief on the money i spent on the vehicle)- is this going to be an issue?

[najw]

that's something i hadn't thought of.

my vehicle has to carry my corporate sponsors in very large print on the sides and bonnet of the vehicle else i don't get sponsored (well ok i do, but i won't get the tax relief on the money i spent on the vehicle)- is this going to be an issue?

Not an issue at all

(Unless of course your business is called 'Ban Scorpion Racing')

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with Neil ……….. if I was a sponsor (say…. er … a fish & chip vendor ) and a good percentage of the competitors turned up with ‘ban fish n chips’ stickers …….. then I would be most unhappy ………… not because of the meaning of the stickers , but because it is ungentlemanly, rude, and plain disrespectful to the sponsor in THAT ENVIRONMENT.

If you disagree with a sponsor then you should register this by not entering into the sponsored event.

But, to get back on topic ………..I have read the regs and do not have a problem with competing under AWDC rules………… although I’m a bit confused as to why the negative battery wire is to be marked ‘yellow’ as that is against all electrical convention……. Black or Green/Yellow ………. but not yellow.

Ian

[najw]

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with Neil ……….. if I was a sponsor (say…. er … a fish & chip vendor ) and a good percentage of the competitors turned up with ‘ban fish n chips’ stickers …….. then I would be most unhappy ………… not because of the meaning of the stickers , but because it is ungentlemanly, rude, and plain disrespectful to the sponsor in THAT ENVIRONMENT.

If you disagree with a sponsor then you should register this by not entering into the sponsored event.

But, to get back on topic ………..I have read the regs and do not have a problem with competing under AWDC rules………… although I’m a bit confused as to why the negative battery wire is to be marked ‘yellow’ as that is against all electrical convention……. Black or Green/Yellow ………. but not yellow.

Ian

I'm afraid I don't know the WHY but MSA Blue Book Regulation E.12.14.5 states 'Have the battery earth lead, if not readily distinguishable, identified by a yellow marking'

On the plus side - its not difficult

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Yes, your are right Neil, it’s not difficult ……….all mine are black (+ & -) with just the + being identified with a red marking ………. So adding a little more colour won’t be a problem (or a hardship)

Ian

[pugwash]

Sorry guys, but I have to agree with Neil ……….. if I was a sponsor (say…. er … a fish & chip vendor ) and a good percentage of the competitors turned up with 'ban fish n chips' stickers …….. then I would be most unhappy ………… not because of the meaning of the stickers , but because it is ungentlemanly, rude, and plain disrespectful to the sponsor in THAT ENVIRONMENT.

I konw what you are saying Ian and it's not like i don't understand what you are saying.

BUT

if everyone had stickers on their vehicle saying NO to "out of the blue" (being the name of my chip shops) i would be upset, but i would be much much more determined to win everyone over with great food and the best service, even if it cost me money. If i thought those commments were unfounded i would approach the person (or people) concerned just to discuss my side of the story, or i would withdraw sponsorship- which is probably the real issue here. Quite understandably AWDC are probably quite worried about losing a beneficial sponsor.

So i'm having an about face here- if a competition organiser approached me to remove decals because they might lose a very valuable sponsor then i would remove them on that grounds. i would think even less of the sponsor though!

[najw]

So i'm having an about face here- if a competition organiser approached me to remove decals because they might lose a very valuable sponsor then i would remove them on that grounds. i would think even less of the sponsor though!

Phew - mutual understanding prevails

Still it helped to pass a boring Friday afternoon.

James - you can have your thread back now - we're done with it

[pugwash]

sorry neil- meant to add- please don't think i am denigrating you're work as it looks like you are doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances. My comments were in no way meant to be a personal "dig" at you, just at scorpion!

i'll go away now James.

[Mark90]

i feel strongly about scorpion, however i also fee quite strongly that i would like to support the AWDC.

Me too, hell I even have an AWDC sticker on the truck. If it wasn't an AWDC event and was simply a Scoprion event I would not have entered.

I was hoping to do a fair few of the AWDC events this year but due to other commitments I'll likely only be able to do a couple. ("What a relief" say Neil )

Indeed Jez's suggestion is a good one- i would happily consider paying extra not to benefit from the scorpion sponsorship- would anyone else though?

The way it is if you don't wear the sponsors stickers you don't get the prizes which I think is fair enough. And if the organisers wanna have a say in what other stickers you have on your truck well it's their game so I guess they make the rules.

[white90]

how important is the sponsorship then? aren't the costs covered by the entry fees? the AWDC are pricey in comparison to our loal events

CSW/James ones

I for one wouldn't have sponsors stickers on my car if I didn't like the company

they can keep the prizes, I'm only there to have a good day out

and nowt in this world would have me putting Scrapiron advertising on my car.

sponsorship for our local events has meant car stickers for team numbers and a few prizes.

the cost of the event is covered by the entry fees.

this way shoddy companies with bad business ethics would not benefit from the advertising a few stickers and prizes cost them.

decent companies:

adventure4x4

X-eng

OEC

Southdown

Out of the blue

I'll happily advertise with the team number stickers as they are decent.