AWDC - any members here?

[najw]

sorry neil- meant to add- please don't think i am denigrating you're work as it looks like you are doing an excellent job in difficult circumstances. My comments were in no way meant to be a personal "dig" at you, just at scorpion!

i'll go away now James.

None taken - healthy debate is a good thing - as is freedom of speech

It is worth pointing out after Tony's comments that the sponsors stickers don't actually include Scorpion Racing stickers, aside from the number boards which do of course feature the name, the other stickers are from prize sponsors such as Marlowe, Exxide, Polybush, Wipac, TRS, K&N, Cobra, etc.. all well respected names in Motorsport.

How important is Sponsorship - if you're looking a build a high profile series that people want to participate in then very.

If you're only out for a good days craic in the mud with your mates then probably not.

It is worth pointing out that due to our high profile approach we achieved over 65 pages of editorial coverage in the 4x4 press last year, that's 65 pages of pictures of competitors cars and that is something that you can use to attract your own sponsorship (if you so wished) to defray some of your own costs.

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I’m glad Jim took no offence to using him as an example to illustrate a point ………………but at the end of the day, I am happy to compete with the sponsors logo etc as part of my entry vehicle identification number for the duration of the event…….. that is just acknowledging the event sponsorship ………… then the stickers come off.

Like Tony, I am not one for having loads of stickers all over the vehicle, regardless who the sponsor is.

Ian

[pugwash]

I'm glad Jim took no offence to using him as an example to illustrate a point

I don't know what gave you that idea.

you jsut wait til the next time YOU want fish and chips at the next event- i'll make sure you get some of my "special" sauce

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

[white90]

events and good days out

well James events/HBRO/Paul wightmans have been the best I've attended

the interclub was very good but some of the super competitive people there caused me some humor

watching them tear off like a Le Mans start nearly hitting one another

offering no help to anyone else, can't see the point

bit like people cheating really what is the point.

PS I bet if you ran an event with no sponsorship the mags would cover it.

I understand the money helps but how really important is it?

at £60 per event thats £20 more than most other events we do does the sponsorship money make such a difference?

[BlackTJ]

I'm afraid I don't know the WHY but MSA Blue Book Regulation E.12.14.5 states 'Have the battery earth lead, if not readily distinguishable, identified by a yellow marking'

On the plus side - its not difficult

First let me make clear I fully understand why a marshal needs to have a 100% guaranteed way of knowing which is the earth lead. In a high pressure situation like an accident he can not afford to get it wrong, especially if there is leaking petrol about.

I would have turned up at an event thinking I have a readily distinguishable way of identifying the Earth lead. The thick black cable is the Earth and the thick red cable is the +ve. Seems like a pretty basic standard. They even sell the thick cable with either red insulation or black insulation.

However (and no personal dig at Bull Bar Cowboy) because some people decide to save a few pounds and only buy the cable in black then everybody has to wrap yellow tape around the black cable to ensure the marshal cuts the right cable.

This is an example when a scrutineer should be sensible and point out to the competitor with the black +ve cable (even with red tape) that he should change it in the near future. Instead the tail wags the dog.

If I didn't have any yellow tape would I have been banned from entering?

Presumably I need to wrap it around the Earth to chassis cable, the front winch earth cable, the rear winch earth cable, as they all provide an Earth between the battery and chassis, and possibly the -ve cable between the dual batteries. Do I do this near the battery terminals or the whole length of each cable. I think a rule change would be in order in the Challenge arena as some of us use so much of the stuff. If nothing else it should state categorically that the Earth lead should be wrapped in yellow tape. Personally I think red for power and black for Earth would be more sensible.

[white90]

I just marked the earth lead near the battery with yellow tape.

fitted a proper Batt cut off

winch cut offs

throttle rtn spring

correct extinguisher

and labeled everything

I never had any problems passing

all recovery gear is top quality from D44 or OEC

plasma12 is again brand new and the rear winch rope is in A1 order.

[JST]

guys, interesting though the thread is, (particularly that Jim firstly might get off his fat arse (i quote!) secondly that he might eventually get a vehicle) the question was intend to find out whether you would still particiapte in SWC/FSWC events if you had to be a member of AWDC.

Don't get me wrong the banter is good and some good points covered.

i would also like to publicly thank Neil at this point for his help and advice, as in the end no insurance = no event as far as i am concerned. The AWDC is the most cost effective (to me) way of getting insurance, (that i hav found to date) that does mean that you guys, the competitors will need to join them though at min £15 a through for 12 mths. hence the question. My aim is to keep entry costs down as much as possible, sure i cn go with several of the quotes i ahve had this year but i don't have a spare £3k kicking around, not today anyway! and to pass on these costs at entry would be more than the min £15 associate membership to AWDC. hence the question.

PS - anyone got any yellow tape?

[najw]

First let me make clear I fully understand why a marshal needs to have a 100% guaranteed way of knowing which is the earth lead. In a high pressure situation like an accident he can not afford to get it wrong, especially if there is leaking petrol about.

I would have turned up at an event thinking I have a readily distinguishable way of identifying the Earth lead. The thick black cable is the Earth and the thick red cable is the +ve. Seems like a pretty basic standard. They even sell the thick cable with either red insulation or black insulation.

However (and no personal dig at Bull Bar Cowboy) because some people decide to save a few pounds and only buy the cable in black then everybody has to wrap yellow tape around the black cable to ensure the marshal cuts the right cable.

This is an example when a scrutineer should be sensible and point out to the competitor with the black +ve cable (even with red tape) that he should change it in the near future. Instead the tail wags the dog.

If I didn't have any yellow tape would I have been banned from entering?

Presumably I need to wrap it around the Earth to chassis cable, the front winch earth cable, the rear winch earth cable, as they all provide an Earth between the battery and chassis, and possibly the -ve cable between the dual batteries. Do I do this near the battery terminals or the whole length of each cable. I think a rule change would be in order in the Challenge arena as some of us use so much of the stuff. If nothing else it should state categorically that the Earth lead should be wrapped in yellow tape. Personally I think red for power and black for Earth would be more sensible.

Take it up with the MSA, the UK governing body of motorsport. Not me!

[Mark90]

Neil I realise you don't make the rules just follow/enforce them but with regard to this marking the earth cable is there any regs regarding it being accessable to cut or that anyone (ie marshalls) should be suitably equipped (ie bolt croppers as with the best will in the world you'll be there a while trying to cut 35-70mm² cable with a leatherman) to cut the cable if required?

[V8CAMEL]

on the yellow lead thing i have no problem identifying the earth lead or many leads in my case.

the point i was making is that there are three wires to a winch

1 black or earth.

1 red Live

1 Yellow live

this makes putting yellow on a black earth lead a tad confusing and unsafe.

I also don't understand how or why the marshal would open the bonnet when we all have, AWDC, electrical kill switches in easy reach of the driver whilst seated.

Also how many marshalls carry bolt cutters in their flourescent jackets? my cables are all a min of 35mm2

Paul

[white90]

Paul

any marshal could open my bonnet but the batteries are under the seat

[V8CAMEL]

James

i will participate as i do now but as marshalls will we need to have AWDC training or will it be carry on as usual. and can i have a pair of bolt croppers for cutting earth cables as well as my flourescent jacket, packed lunch and free marshals draw

Also will it remove the requirement for Tax/Insurance?

ta Muchly

Paul

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

However (and no personal dig at Bull Bar Cowboy) because some people decide to save a few pounds and only buy the cable in black then everybody has to wrap yellow tape around the black cable to ensure the marshal cuts the right cable.

This is an example when a scrutineer should be sensible and point out to the competitor with the black +ve cable (even with red tape) that he should change it in the near future. Instead the tail wags the dog.

If I didn't have any yellow tape would I have been banned from entering?

Presumably I need to wrap it around the Earth to chassis cable, the front winch earth cable, the rear winch earth cable, as they all provide an Earth between the battery and chassis, and possibly the -ve cable between the dual batteries. Do I do this near the battery terminals or the whole length of each cable. I think a rule change would be in order in the Challenge arena as some of us use so much of the stuff. If nothing else it should state categorically that the Earth lead should be wrapped in yellow tape. Personally I think red for power and black for Earth would be more sensible.

Ah……. better explain a little more ……….. the + cable is actually red, but all the cables are covered with black convoluted split sleeve for protection …………. But I have got load of yellow tape....

Ian

[LR90]

guys, interesting though the thread is, (particularly that Jim firstly might get off his fat arse (i quote!) secondly that he might eventually get a vehicle) the question was intend to find out whether you would still particiapte in SWC/FSWC events if you had to be a member of AWDC.

Don't get me wrong the banter is good and some good points covered.

i would also like to publicly thank Neil at this point for his help and advice, as in the end no insurance = no event as far as i am concerned. The AWDC is the most cost effective (to me) way of getting insurance, (that i hav found to date) that does mean that you guys, the competitors will need to join them though at min £15 a through for 12 mths. hence the question. My aim is to keep entry costs down as much as possible, sure i cn go with several of the quotes i ahve had this year but i don't have a spare £3k kicking around, not today anyway! and to pass on these costs at entry would be more than the min £15 associate membership to AWDC. hence the question.

PS - anyone got any yellow tape?

Regrettably it would cost me more in fuel to get to a CSW event than the £15 membership fee so certainly for me I would have no difficulties with becoming an AWDC member.

I might also add I was very impressed with the last round of the AWDC 2006 series at Slindon. Friendly event with some great competitors and whatever others experiences of operating under AWDC rules/scrutineering it seemed perfectly workable at Neil's event so I don't see any reason for not following suit for the CSW events (and perhaps others).

[Mike C]

James,

As a regular event organiser I can understand your desire to run your events under the AWDC banner if its an easy route to insurance that covers competitive events and hence the peice of mind it provides. Like BlackTJ I run a Jeep that does not comply with AWDC regs, making it do so would be a pain however its something I would have to do if I wanted to come to your events. I say its a pain as the regs are clearly not written with Jeeps in mind, Jeep front wheels have never been covered by a 120 degree covering. Reading the thread there appears to be a lot of variation in the standard of scruitineering at events therefore I am interested in knowing if AWDC scrutineers attend training to ensure a consistient and fair application of the regs? Also who would be doing the scrutineering, I'd be interested in getting thier view on some regs?

tah

Mike C

[JST]

Paul, Mike,

In answer to your question of who would do the scrutineering my understanding is that it needs to be a 'competent person' rather than a trained person. Define competent? difficult one; for example i would argue that i could be deemed as competent inspecting someones vehicle compared to someone who has never even seen or driven or understands anything on a vehicle, but then i wouldn't be competent compared to some of the guys frequenting this forum with their technical ability. so a bit up in hte air, and open to the interpretation . i think the common sense law applies and is something i would be keen to stick with, but as rightly stated prev it depends whos interpretating what and their understanding of common sense.

In addittion those that have mentioned been picked up for items on scrutineering and still competed, there needs to be line drawn, it either passes or it doesn't. If it doesn't pass what are the items it can be given an advisory on, should they be recored and if not sorted for the next event denied entry? (i think so) For example the mud guard law! or not having yellow cables.

I am also likely to maintain the road legal requirements for my events at current thinking, primariily as most of the venues i have for this year require movement on road between sites.

Could the regs be made available to comp before the event and at scrutineering, items that will be checked on scruitineering highlighted before the event, (as i currently do) then each comp sign a disclaimer to state they comply with the technical regs? would that surfice?

[najw]

Aah, another day, another debate

As James says, marshals and scrutineers are required to be competent people, common sense from the organisers point of view to select people he deems competent. At Challenge Trophy events we use two MSA trained scrutineers to ensure consistency through the series. This is simply our choice, not a requirement. At a local event whether it be a trial or challenge, someone with suitable mechanical knowledge is fine.

I always send entrants the regulations by post so there is no argument about them having them or not.

We have a 25 point checklist scrutineering card, for CT events this is a log which is maintained throughout the year. For local events it is usually printed on the back of the score card. There is no problem in making this list public knowledge to ensure compliance.

Unless it is something blatantly dangerous and deadly, we allow one events grace to sort things out. ie you are warned and it MUST be sorted by the next event, if its not then no playing today. Obvioulsy this is easier with a logbook than a one-off card although it is easy enough to keep a seperate list of culprits and their offences.

No we don't issue marshals with Bolt Croppers - as I said before I don't know why the reg is there, it just is. I have found that a simple yellow cable tie on the black earth lead at the battery terminal suffices.

As far as mudguards are concerned I wouldn't be too concerned about this reg. As has been pointed out Jeeps don't comply to the letter of the law and never have. All I would pull a car up on is if the tyre came out beyond the side of the mudguard. As far as the 120 degree bit etc. I wouldn't pay any attention to that. I didn't see anything at Huntsham last week that would/should have failed on this reg.

Things like the free marshals draw, packed lunch etc are another example of comes with a generous sponsor

Got to go now - off to the AWDC Scorpion Racing Challenge Trophy Dinner Dance where we will be presenting the winner of the series with a Warn 8274-50 and sets of BFG Mud Terrains to the class winners as well as loads of other trophies and prizes :lol:

[treebloke]

I have just read through the AWDC spec for competing vehicles and it looks like I will need to alter my side exit exhaust or put a deflector over it.

I have three questions/queries

Return springs fitted to the throttle, mine is a td5, does that make it exempt from this rule?.

Warning triangles when winching across a track, are they serious about this and if so, surely you would need two, not one.

Snatch blocks/shackles must be rated at 3.25 tonnes, I take it this means 3.25 tonnes or above?

Bob

[Mike C]

James,

Publishing the regs/scruitineering checklist before the event would be fine plus I'd be happy to sign a disclaimer to state that my Jeep complies with the technical regs. I've now had a chance to review the AWDC challenge regs and dicuss them with BlackTJ and an MSA scrutineer and will be complying with the regs that can be applied to a Jeep. If you do go down the AWDC/MSA can you please let me have a copy of your regs/scruitineering checklist. Finally, I'd stick with the "must be road legal" clause as it ensures a certain level of compliance.

Mike C

[white90]

The regs are here for other interested parties

Regs.pdf

[Mike C]

All,

Can somebody please point me at a supplier of kill switches plus suggested wiring implementations that will isolate batteries/alternator effectively stopping winches/engine. I'm very interested in knowing the amp rating of the switches that folks are already using. Assuming 2 winches + vehicle, I think I'm looking at a switch that will cope with a continous load of around 975 amps. One of the big issues for Jeeps is that the batteries are located on the passenger side of the engine bay, therefore if available, I'm looking for something that can be activated remotely via a cable or some other means.

tah in advance

Mike C

[white90]

I have ceramic winch cut offs from David bowyer

FIA approved batt cut off from peter Lloyd rallying on ebay

Master Batt cut off switches also come with remote operation controls if required, no more that a choke cable/bonnet release cable style to operate the master cut off

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopi...battery+cut+off

[JST]

I will be keeping the road legal element.

if i go the AWDC route then as before i will publish the items that will be scrutineered.

drivers will sign a disclaimer saying they comply with the tech regs as well.

3.75T or above Yes

Wng Triangles, and return spring i am sure Neil will comment on whens hes back! the former i would not deem necessary as long as the winch sail is on the section of rope that crosses the track and would seek exemption from thir reg (if that is allowed?)

Oh yeah forgot to mention earlierif anyone has No X-Eng, Hydro Bikes are carp, or Ban OEC racing they will need to remove or cover their stickers as well (for the duration of the event) If you feel strongly against doing that then dont compete!

[Adrian Turner]

Warning triangles when winching across a track, are they serious about this and if so, surely you would need two, not one.

Bob

I never could work that one out! as you say which way round do you place the triangle? as cars can come from both directions!

It would be ok if it was a two car team event!