110 Puma death wobble

[L19MUD]

I know this has been covered many times before but this is getting annoying now! This is a mates truck that we have been working through trying to find the cause of the problem. The truck- 2012 110 Puma with only 25k miles. It has standard suspension but has wheel spacers and 18 inch Kahn wheels with BFG AT2 Tyres. These modifications were made prior to purchase and all was well for a good few months.

No changes were made prior to the problem occurring which is a hard vibration/wobble side to side on the steering at 50-60mph which occurs most times but not all times on the way up to 70mph, we cannot work out what causes it to happen some times and not others. it clears at 70mph which indicates to me something that is out of balance.

 

Work completed so far with absolutely no improvement

- Checked steering for free play at drop arm, steering column UJ's, Box. All good

- Front wheels swapped to the rear

- Pan hard rod bushes replaced with Polybush, these were showing some signs of wear but not the worst I have seen by a long way

- Steering damper replaced with Terrafirma big bore damper (old unit was not shot when changed)

- Front radius arm bushes all replaced with Polybush red bushes. These again seemed fine but changed whilst we had the arms off

 

The only thing left I can think of is swivel preloads but I really can't see this being the cause with only 25k easy miles on the clock. When I had the radius arms off I checked the drivers side and the pre load is not quite as tight as I would expect when setting up from scratch but there was resistance there and certainly comparable to other Defenders where this problem does not exist.

We could remove the spacers and fit the wheel direct to the hubs? There is no uneven wear on the tyres though and to be honest that feels like clutching at straws! (which we are now 😁). What I don't like about the spacers is that they don't have a central hub to center the wheel, they rely on the wheel nuts. Whilst this is not ideal the problem was not there initially with the spacers on.

 

Thanks

 

Sam

 

[Retroanaconda]

Definitely remove the spacers to eliminate them from the running. Most alloys seem to require hub-centric spacers so it’s possible that’s a contributory factor at least.

Beyond that I would be looking at the pre-loads.

[landroversforever]

I'd also be looking at the spacers. 

Did you look at the bolts on the panhard? they can wear and cause issues, along with the hole in the axle bracket. Talking of panhard - Are all the bolts on the chassis bracket tight?

[Dr Strangeglove]

I would try fitting a set of wheels with good tyres if you can borrow a set from someone - but without the spacers. Or just try without the spacers to start with.

I really am no expert mechanic or indeed with land rovers, but I have had a number of experiences with juddering steering and that has been down to bad tyres (which often did not look damaged). One of those experiences was with my defender!

[TSD]

Completely off-the-wall thought, but there was a recall on 2011-12 Defender for a weakness in the front axle casing.  The wording of the recall didn't seem very reassuring, nor did a photo I saw of the added brackets.

Worth checking if this one is in the affected range?

Other than that I'd be looking at all the things already covered. If in doubt, tighten the swivels, and while the wheels are off swap them front to back (and stick the spacers on ebay).

 

[L19MUD]

Thanks all. I will pull those spacers off next and can swap the wheel over from my truck over to the 110 for testing. 

 

8 hours ago, TSD said:

Completely off-the-wall thought, but there was a recall on 2011-12 Defender for a weakness in the front axle casing.  The wording of the recall didn't seem very reassuring, nor did a photo I saw of the added brackets.

Worth checking if this one is in the affected range?

Other than that I'd be looking at all the things already covered. If in doubt, tighten the swivels, and while the wheels are off swap them front to back (and stick the spacers on ebay).

 

 interesting about the recall though I did not know about that one and seems odd that they would have changed the design of the front axle then, nothing about it that looked obviously different. Will see if it is an affected car though as from the VIN it was built 2011 and registered 2012 so puts it bang in the middle of that range. - Edit it is about 1000 units outside of this range

 

 

12 hours ago, landroversforever said:

 

Did you look at the bolts on the panhard? they can wear and cause issues, along with the hole in the axle bracket. Talking of panhard - Are all the bolts on the chassis bracket tight?

I changed the bolts for new ones for this exact reason. Will also double check for signs of the holes elongating in the panhard bolt holes on the brackets but would suspect you would hear a clonk?

[TSD]

17 minutes ago, L19MUD said:

... seems odd that they would have changed the design of the front axle then, nothing about it that looked obviously different.

I don't think they changed the design, more likely a batch of casings not made to drawing? The 'fix' bracket mounts on the hockey stick bolts, and looks like it tries to stop the swivel housing from snapping off

Good luck getting the lower swivel housing bolts out in 10 years time!

[L19MUD]

3 minutes ago, TSD said:

I don't think they changed the design, more likely a batch of casings not made to drawing? The 'fix' bracket mounts on the hockey stick bolts, and looks like it tries to stop the swivel housing from snapping off

Good luck getting the lower swivel housing bolts out in 10 years time!

😬 that is a shameful bodge! They are certainly not fitted to this one

[Dave W]

It's definitely worth trying a different set of wheels/tyres if you can. I spent months trying to find a similar issue on a Range Rover classic that would start to oscillate really badly after hitting any kind of bump at speed. In my case it was the tyres that were at fault although there was no visible sign of a problem. Wheel spacers can also hide problems so removing them from the equation is definitely a good idea.

[landroversforever]

I'd also suggest that once you've tested it without the spacers, I'd try it without the steering damper on it too to make sure that's not masking anything that's there repeatedly.

[Snagger]

The axle casing issue was a problem with the welds between swivel flange and the axle tube.  That should be an easy spot.

The oversize wheels plus spacers will have put a lot of stress on the wheel bearings, swivels and steering components, and probably some of the suspension too, so when you say 25k easy road miles, you are unfortunately missing the harm that this botched up conversion has suffered.  The swivel bearings, wheel bearings and stub axles are all likely to show significant wear and any or all of them could be responsible for the wobble.  Offset wheels and spacers exaggerate any play or asymmetry in what the wheels are doing, as well as causing accelerated wear, so they will almost certainly be the underplaying cause.

The new steering damper is a gas damper, which by definition shouldn’t be used on the steering. Terra firms don’t enjoy a good reputation, anyway.  If the original steering damper is ok, refit it.  It won’t be responsible for the problem, though - the damper merely hides wobbles and kicks, but can’t cause them.

[L19MUD]

23 minutes ago, Snagger said:

The axle casing issue was a problem with the welds between swivel flange and the axle tube.  That should be an easy spot.

Yes I will check for that thanks

 

24 minutes ago, Snagger said:

The oversize wheels plus spacers will have put a lot of stress on the wheel bearings, swivels and steering components, and probably some of the suspension too, so when you say 25k easy road miles, you are unfortunately missing the harm that this botched up conversion has suffered.  The swivel bearings, wheel bearings and stub axles are all likely to show significant wear and any or all of them could be responsible for the wobble.  Offset wheels and spacers exaggerate any play or asymmetry in what the wheels are doing, as well as causing accelerated wear, so they will almost certainly be the underplaying cause.

I think 'botched up conversion' is a bit harsh to be honest. In reality most of us run wheels which achieve a wider track. The rolling radius is similar to one of my 265/85 tyres although I have not measured to get the exact size.  My own 90 has covered 25k miles on much wider offset wheels on 285/75 tyres which give a very similar overall width to the outside of the sidewall as this 110, as well as mine having completed 170k miles before those were fitted and spending its life in muddy fields and towing 3 axle 3.5 ton trailers which this truck has not done.. I have thoroughly checked for movement on the wheel bearings/stub axles/swivels and everything is exactly as it should be. I don't disagree that offset wheels/spacers don't cause increased levels of wear but I do disagree that the increased loadings caused by this are causing the wobble given there is no movement present on any of the bearings. Having said that the spacers themselves could a problem with the alignment of the wheels so should be removed to see if that solves the issue. 

 

33 minutes ago, Snagger said:

The new steering damper is a gas damper, which by definition shouldn’t be used on the steering. Terra firms don’t enjoy a good reputation, anyway.  If the original steering damper is ok, refit it.  It won’t be responsible for the problem, though - the damper merely hides wobbles and kicks, but can’t cause them.

It is not a gas damper just a bigger bore than standard, agreed it won't cause problems on its own https://defender4x4parts.co.uk/products/terrafirma-tf832-defender-steering-damper

 

[L19MUD]

3 hours ago, Dave W said:

It's definitely worth trying a different set of wheels/tyres if you can. I spent months trying to find a similar issue on a Range Rover classic that would start to oscillate really badly after hitting any kind of bump at speed. In my case it was the tyres that were at fault although there was no visible sign of a problem. Wheel spacers can also hide problems so removing them from the equation is definitely a good idea.

This is certainly what we are going to do next. I have visually checked all 4 tyres and can't see that they are out of shape (plus would be unusual for a BFG AT). We have a set of wolf wheels and tyres on another 90 with 235/85 R16 tyres on and will fit without the spacers

[Landrovernuts]

I had some brand new BFG KO2's sent back not long ago as they could not balance them - they tried several times and checked the rims for straightness. There was no problem with the previous Goodyear duratracs. The symptoms were death wobble between 40 and 50mph, but to be fair to the tyre company, I said I would do the preloads first just in case. I fitted new upper pins and bearings and set them slightly tighter than specified and it made sod all difference. 

New tyres fitted and death wobble very much reduced, but not eliminated, so don't rule out the tyres just because they are BFG!

Toby

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, L19MUD said:

 

I think 'botched up conversion' is a bit harsh to be honest. 

 

For the money Khan charge and the claims they make, I stand by the remark.  If the track needs to be widened, there are much better methods of doing it, and while spacers or offset rims may be ok in isolation (varying opinions on that in the long term), they most certainly shouldn’t be combined.

[L19MUD]

4 minutes ago, Snagger said:

For the money Khan charge and the claims they make, I stand by the remark.  If the track needs to be widened, there are much better methods of doing it, and while spacers or offset rims may be ok in isolation (varying opinions on that in the long term), they most certainly shouldn’t be combined.

Kahn didn't fit them and I don't think the wheels themselves have an offset much different to standard. The wheels are the only Kahn component, the suspension etc has not been fiddled with and there are no horrendous bits of plastic added to the sides! 

 

@davesdefenders we need a picture of the truck for context on this thread!

[steve b]

Is the steering box centred at straight ahead ? Are all the column joints nice and tight ? 

Does the drop arm have the ball joint as earlier Defender and if so what's it like ?

You seem to have covered most other things , still worth trying different known good wheels and tyres for sure .

Anything to be gained from clamping a go-pro underneath and going for a run ? 

Steve

[Ed Poore]

Simple thing - have you made sure that the panhard rod bolts are done up to hernia giving tightness? I had a wobble just before the last MOT and was fairly sure I had a knackered panhard rod bush, took it off and it was fine. Realised that the bolt just wasn't tight enough - there was minimal play but tightening it up made a world of difference.

[Implandy]

Check the top joint on the A frame for the rear axle , chased a similar problem for ages then whilst doing other work spotted the joint was fubarred , bingo problem resolved

[landroversforever]

1 hour ago, Implandy said:

Check the top joint on the A frame for the rear axle , chased a similar problem for ages then whilst doing other work spotted the joint was fubarred , bingo problem resolved

The rear is a good shout. I had a wobble on a Hired 110 When the rear trailing arm chassis bushes were on their way out. 

[Snagger]

20 hours ago, L19MUD said:

Kahn didn't fit them and I don't think the wheels themselves have an offset much different to standard. The wheels are the only Kahn component, the suspension etc has not been fiddled with and there are no horrendous bits of plastic added to the sides! 

 

@davesdefenders we need a picture of the truck for context on this thread!

Ok, I misunderstood the initial scenario, and I’d not have been so full of condemnation!  Owners like us don’t have the level of knowledge I expect from professionals, so I’d not be as critical if I’d realised the wheel and spacer combination was an owner mod.  I still think the typical Khan products an abomination, though...😉 🙂

[L19MUD]

1 minute ago, Snagger said:

Ok, I misunderstood the initial scenario, and I’d not have been so full of condemnation!  Owners like us don’t have the level of knowledge I expect from professionals, so I’d not be as critical if I’d realised the wheel and spacer combination was an owner mod.  I still thing the typical Khan products an abomination, though...😉 🙂

Lol i quite agree. These particular wheels do look good and not too blingy 😁

[davesdefenders]

Here is the truck in question guys, thank you all so much for your responses, much appreciated!

[Badger110]

I run skinnier tyres on tubed rims, 7.50 x 16's but the look is more suited to a series than a defender as the wheels sit inside the arch's a fair bit.

 

For pure aesthetic reasons i fitted spacers to push them out abit and had the same problem at around 40-50, it's wasn't constant but comes and goes. 

 

The spacers are not hub centred either.

 

I took them off, cleaned the wheel and hub faces by rubbing them down to get a decent face to face match and it did cure the issue, however i don't rarely go over 60.

 

 

[davesdefenders]

On 11/29/2020 at 8:45 AM, Badger110 said:

I run skinnier tyres on tubed rims, 7.50 x 16's but the look is more suited to a series than a defender as the wheels sit inside the arch's a fair bit.

 

For pure aesthetic reasons i fitted spacers to push them out abit and had the same problem at around 40-50, it's wasn't constant but comes and goes. 

 

The spacers are not hub centred either.

 

I took them off, cleaned the wheel and hub faces by rubbing them down to get a decent face to face match and it did cure the issue, however i don't rarely go over 60.

 

 

Thanks! we are trying this tomorrow 👍🏻