Unhappy recon r380

[roybatty666]

Had a strange noise from my new recon r380 and value some advice before I deal with retuning it to make sure I'm not pissing something.

Been doing big build in my daily 1996 300tdi, 35" tyres 4" lift, full corrected arms, adjustable A frame, Ashcroft shafts, a painful pricey experience getting Nige to rebuild my 2nd hand lockers, (tab locked pegged, HD CW&P) you name it I'm doing it, so my r380 had no 2nd her synchro so for a recon box, as well as a LOF power spec clutch kit, and new clutch slave and mater and braided line.

Bit of a faff to swap on my own but at least car is off the ground enough so can do it with the tyres on tarmac haha.

All went together fine oil in etc, first start I quickly turned it off as the gear chatter sounded awful. , Reassure it was lack of tunnel cover and HD clutch etc.

Knocking never got better and you could feel it through the clutch pedal as you put pressure on it but it backed off if you stopped clutch movement at any point so not the new release bearing. This rotational knock turned into a rumble /grind on higher rpm shifts.

It got worse so spoke with Luke at LOF whos so helpful, went though lots of things and ended up ruling out clutch.

Then I started to hear and feel the noise in gear driving , it was  previously masked by the tyres and the 300tdi purrrrrr haha

Tested and the rotational knock/graunch is there when stationary and with tbox in neutral and gets faster with progressive higher gears and/or engine revs. You can also feel it though the gear stick, at high revs it sounds like a dead release bearing sound.

I dropped the oil and no real metal on the magnet but blimey the oil is like gold glitter glue, the pictures don't do it justice. And this is just 300 miles of road use.

Spoken With the company who obviously want it back to investigate but was rather hoping for more discussion on the issue and my findings to make sure I'm not sending back a good box (don't think I am) and have to be without my daily drive for who knows how long. I guess they don't want to speculate and say something they then get held to 

So if you guys could look at the pics and comment if the oil looks normal for first change on a rebuilt box that would be fantastic, I dropped in a pic of my baby as that's always need for context

 

[Bowie69]

There's just no way that box is any good with that amount of glitter in the oil.

[roybatty666]

19 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

There's just no way that box is any good with that amount of glitter in the oil.

Maybe for decorating my Christmas cards 😂

Same amount of oil came out as went in so no leaks or vanish fluid. 

Just intrigued as to what it is as so persistent through all gears, and must be a baulk ring or other brass/bronze component. Feels like some sort of thrust related issue but I'm no transmission expert in the slightest lol 🤨🤔

Will call them tomorrow as can't really be car less for long so rather buy another and sort money out later. Fun fun fun

[Blanco]

Use a credit card, if they get unhelpful after you buy a second box at least you have a second string to that bow ....2 cents

[Bowie69]

12 minutes ago, Blanco said:

Use a credit card, if they get unhelpful after you buy a second box at least you have a second string to that bow ....2 cents

The same protection credit cards had, has been extended to debit card payments now.

[Blanco]

Good stuff, .... still behind the curve! .... I am used to that 🙄

[roybatty666]

Good advice 

I'm not too worried on them not resolving it as while I won't name names as don't think thats on, they are reputable bunch who I've been a customer of for years. They have said they are happy to have a look at it.

Just a royal pain as I work / look after kids and I no longer have a second car so finding time to do it and be without a car etc.

This will be third time its out as the main seal I put in failed to had to do it again with an HS2.8 seal (should have done thatto start with lol) I'm down gearbox and clutch off in 4.5 hours on my back now so becoming a pro haha 

Edited November 16, 2020 by roybatty666
Spelling

[Nonimouse]

If it's who I think it is, they do make mistakes. Their 'recon' boxes are bare minimum replacement and gears/bearings form Turkey, not Spain or Japan as they used to be. That 'glitter' is phosphor bronze, so something is very not right, although it's very pretty.

One good thing about this company (i'm thinking of) is they value their reputation for sorting out issues

[roybatty666]

Indeed, things happen and with recon stuff and even building brand new things you can build to the best tolerances and specs on a jig and it only takes one duff part that doesn't show untill it's stressed in a real world situation.

I was in engineering before IT so both professions have taught me to expect a storm period when you "go live".

Hence I'm not annoyed, just frustrating as currently my only car and old box was lovely bar 2nd syncro.

The engineer in me is just interested as to the issue. And the doubter in me kept trying to convince myself it was "normal" until I poured the glitter out

[Nonimouse]

Unless it's actually Gold!  The miracle of the R380...

[roybatty666]

The Mrs Christmas present is now sorted though so silver (or gold ) lining 🤣

[reb78]

23 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

If it's who I think it is, they do make mistakes. Their 'recon' boxes are bare minimum replacement and gears/bearings form Turkey, not Spain or Japan as they used to be. That 'glitter' is phosphor bronze, so something is very not right, although it's very pretty.

One good thing about this company (i'm thinking of) is they value their reputation for sorting out issues

Whilst we are talking in code, I think I had problems too with who you think we are all thinking of .... My solution in the end was to go elsewhere. I was very disappointed when I learnt that the parts were not always from good quality suppliers that I thought they were using and that I was paying for. Every time I had a problem 'take it off and bring it in' was the answer. That's fine but that's probably 4-6 days (in DIY terms on a driveway to take off and remove over evenings and weekends) plus time to repair that my daily driver was off the road at a time. It just wasn't sustainable given the number of issues I had!

[Northwards]

Hi guys, 

I'm new here - though I've been lurking for a bit. I'm on Defender 2 as donmacn, with a longer track record there. I'm kind of sorry that my first post on Lr4x4 can't be a little more positive, but RoyBattys post is right on the money for me at the moment.

I also had a refurbished R380 supplied from a 'reputable supplier' at the beginning of this year. I dropped the oil out after 340 miles, and this is what I found:

I have some other pics, including some video where the glittery specs can be seen draining into a bottle. 

To me this looks an awful lot like the pics that RoyBatty has posted, hence why I'm posting myself.

I was in touch with the supplier back in May, and as the box had only done 340 miles I was advised two things:

1) "The bronze flecks are the edges off the outer syncro ring teeth, quite common to see this on the first change, I would expect far less on the next change"

and 

2) to let the gearbox run a bit longer to 'loosen up' and see what happens.

Because of lockdown, it's not been a high-mileage year, but I guess I'm at 3 or 4k miles and things aren't really getting much better. I have a poor change up from 2nd to 3rd - almost every change needs to be really slow to avoid a crunch; and 4th to 5th isn't great in either direction. 

Over the years, this is my 3rd box from this supplier. The first one (same car, 18 or 19 years ago) needed to go back; the second was good - and worked fine for about 170k, this third one is not so good again. That's a 33% success rate.

I'm getting in touch with the supplier again today, hopefully, so my question is: is that amount of bronze flecking 'common' to see after a first oil change on a recon box? I don't have the experience to say, but hopefully others here will.

Thanks in advance.

Donald 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Northwards

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

Whilst we are talking in code, I think I had problems too with who you think we are all thinking of .... My solution in the end was to go elsewhere. I was very disappointed when I learnt that the parts were not always from good quality suppliers that I thought they were using and that I was paying for. Every time I had a problem 'take it off and bring it in' was the answer. That's fine but that's probably 4-6 days (in DIY terms on a driveway to take off and remove over evenings and weekends) plus time to repair that my daily driver was off the road at a time. It just wasn't sustainable given the number of issues I had!

Concerning the possible supplier - who I've always had the utmost faith in.

About 6 years ago, a friend, who owns a bearing suppliers, was offered a job lot of high quality Spanish bearings, synchro rings, seals and gears, all for the re-build of the R380 type box.

He bought them as it was at knockdown price.

They were part of a cancelled order by 'a well known gearbox manufacturer' as they were 'now buying from cheaper sources in Turkey'

He's still got a fair few of the bits

Business is business - if you can reduce your overheads enough to cover returns and still make a profit - then fair enough

[reb78]

2 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Concerning the possible supplier - who I've always had the utmost faith in.

About 6 years ago, a friend, who owns a bearing suppliers, was offered a job lot of high quality Spanish bearings, synchro rings, seals and gears, all for the re-build of the R380 type box.

He bought them as it was at knockdown price.

They were part of a cancelled order by 'a well known gearbox manufacturer' as they were 'now buying from cheaper sources in Turkey'

He's still got a fair few of the bits

Business is business - if you can reduce your overheads enough to cover returns and still make a profit - then fair enough

We parted amicably enough but were probably both very happy to see the back of each other in the end. I just seemed to have a bad box and too many incurable issues and I couldn't afford the downtime every time it failed. I sourced an alternative elsewhere and it has been trouble free for nearly two years now (covering a significant mileage in its first year, less this year due to lockdowns). In this case, the reduction in overheads didnt pay off....

[Nonimouse]

It's all interesting stuff. I'll be needing a reco/replacement box in 20-30k; but at the moment I have an LT77. I'd like to upgrade to an R380 - easily done on a Disco, but I was intending on buying one from 'a reputable supplier'...

More and more I'm thinking of simply getting one of my many spare LT77's re-built locally

[roybatty666]

I reiterate not my wish to bad mouth and appretiate every one honouring that and not throwing out names of any company. I really do like the company in question.

My shifting is notchy now and you can hear a grind that goes up with rpm/gear.

Called and was told I'd get a call back been 2 days. I even offered to buy another one and refund once resolved . I have kids and one goes to a special school so have to go pick him up when they call etc so can't have car off the road for ages.

I've bought a second hand one that allegedly runs fine doesn't leak and had clear oil, which is a step up on mine  lol

i do like having spares anyway (not sure why I need 5 diffs. But if this box runs well then will see what I'll do with the other once they have inspected it and suggested a resolution. As the thought of changing it again and maybe having a worse clatter or something

I think recon boxes are as much as a crab shoot as second hand. I wouldn't like to be in that trade and repairing stuff tike that.

I am using this to buy more parts as you do, make me feel like gearbox off is needed for other sruff. Lol. New machined flywheel with new dowels and ring gear, I thought mine looked fine before but slight judder with new clutch so thought I would change it. Sign of a good company wrapping it in grease paper. Lol

[ashtrans]

8 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Concerning the possible supplier - who I've always had the utmost faith in.

About 6 years ago, a friend, who owns a bearing suppliers, was offered a job lot of high quality Spanish bearings, synchro rings, seals and gears, all for the re-build of the R380 type box.

He bought them as it was at knockdown price.

They were part of a cancelled order by 'a well known gearbox manufacturer' as they were 'now buying from cheaper sources in Turkey'

He's still got a fair few of the bits

Business is business - if you can reduce your overheads enough to cover returns and still make a profit - then fair enough

Nonimouse this is slanderous internet bull***t,

come and see our racks of thousands of Timken bearings, we also use Koyo and NKE bearings, NKE for the R380 rear support bearings which are better than the genuine RHP bearings landrover used and are specially made for us, the other brands of these are rubbish, we tested them all.

We make our own baulk rings and buy about 30,000 at a time, not because we can get them cheaper, its because all other brands are rubbish.

Our gears are made in Turkey, this is no secret, I am proud to use this supplier, their production methods are state of the art, good communications, good prices and great quality, who else can manufacture custom gears sets like the 1.100 and 1.301. We have new products coming which take the engineering to another level, we don't just paint them a different colour and give them a silly name like some.

You mention cheap Turkish oil seals, all ours are Corteco, thats the best.

We have never been so busy are upping our production from 20 to 25 gearboxes a day, July (Mid Covid) was our biggest ever month in business, this is not because we sell cheap rubbish as you suggest,

Your comments have no truth, you have irritated me, keep your LT77.

Roy,

I strongly suspect your noises are clutch rattle from the HD clutch, pls return the unit, you can witness it being stripped on the bench, if I am wrong I will eat humble pie, apologise and contribute to your costs,

 

Northwards,

pls do the checks we discussed earlier and let me know how you get on.

 

Reb78

yes you had some genuine issues which I apologise for but I did refund you in full after 10 years from purchase.

Good night all !

Dave Ashcroft

 

 

 

 

 

 

[davie]

i must stick up for ASHTRANS, had a gearbox done by them and its perfect.   Had a transmission box from them and i killed it good and proper, did take me over 100k miles to manage that and it was a lot of abusive driving on my part so they do really good products.   didnt use them for replacement trans box but that was totally me being impatient and got elsewhere as i really needed car faster but when i break next box i will be trying them first as trust quality totally.     the advice and support given whenever messaged or called has been great.

[Nonimouse]

11 hours ago, ashtrans said:

Nonimouse this is slanderous internet bull***t,

come and see our racks of thousands of Timken bearings, we also use Koyo and NKE bearings, NKE for the R380 rear support bearings which are better than the genuine RHP bearings landrover used and are specially made for us, the other brands of these are rubbish, we tested them all.

We make our own baulk rings and buy about 30,000 at a time, not because we can get them cheaper, its because all other brands are rubbish.

Our gears are made in Turkey, this is no secret, I am proud to use this supplier, their production methods are state of the art, good communications, good prices and great quality, who else can manufacture custom gears sets like the 1.100 and 1.301. We have new products coming which take the engineering to another level, we don't just paint them a different colour and give them a silly name like some.

You mention cheap Turkish oil seals, all ours are Corteco, thats the best.

We have never been so busy are upping our production from 20 to 25 gearboxes a day, July (Mid Covid) was our biggest ever month in business, this is not because we sell cheap rubbish as you suggest,

Your comments have no truth, you have irritated me, keep your LT77.

Roy,

I strongly suspect your noises are clutch rattle from the HD clutch, pls return the unit, you can witness it being stripped on the bench, if I am wrong I will eat humble pie, apologise and contribute to your costs,

 

Northwards,

pls do the checks we discussed earlier and let me know how you get on.

 

Reb78

yes you had some genuine issues which I apologise for but I did refund you in full after 10 years from purchase.

Good night all !

Dave Ashcroft

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Dave

At no time did I mention a company name, nor hint. Actually I was talking about a company based here in the westcountry, who I still won't name.  Your accusation is suprising as it is annoying. Might I suggest, that if this happens in the future, you pm an individual to check. There are numerous national and international gearbox re-manufacturers based in the UK.

It would be interesting to know who thought I was talking about Ashcroft Transmissions and felt it would be entertaining to cause trouble

 

 

[Escape]

To be fair, I think most (myself included) assumed the company not named was Ashcroft. Just shows that not mentioning the name, all be it with the best of intentions, can have an unexpected outcome.

I did find it strange/ hard to believe, as all the parts I've ever ordered from Ashcroft, including the last R380 rebuild kit, always were from reputable brands like Timken and Corteco.

Filip

[Nonimouse]

20 minutes ago, Escape said:

To be fair, I think most (myself included) assumed the company not named was Ashcroft. Just shows that not mentioning the name, all be it with the best of intentions, can have an unexpected outcome.

I did find it strange/ hard to believe, as all the parts I've ever ordered from Ashcroft, including the last R380 rebuild kit, always were from reputable brands like Timken and Corteco.

Filip

Only issue I have ever had with Ashcroft was sorted out really quickly. Used to socialise with Ian (and David to a lesser degree) at Billing. In fact last time I saw Ian there, I helped load up all the stuff form their stand at the end of the show...

Shows that assuming can make an ass out of you and me - as the old saying goes.  Company I was talking about started out 120 years ago and were once the biggest gearbox specialists in the UK.

 

[Bowie69]

I had no clear idea of who was being spoken about, though I would have been surprised if it had been Ashcroft, in fact just as surprised as Dave's reaction on here, but then I guess we are all allowed a momentary slip.

 

[Nonimouse]

13 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I had no clear idea of who was being spoken about, though I would have been surprised if it had been Ashcroft, in fact just as surprised as Dave's reaction on here, but then I guess we are all allowed a momentary slip.

 

me or Dave?

 

[Nonimouse]

Bowie, whislt you are about, is that chap in Wedmore still re-building boxes?