elbekko Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 3 hours ago, =jon= said: There's something 'weird' with LED and HID lights in certain lights - especially in dusk, and when the road is damp - it seems to suck all of the light up and makes you think there's something wrong with the headlights... I've been told it's because both LED and HID emit a very narrow range of light colours, whereas a normal bulb emits quite a broad range, so the latter will work better in all conditions, even if not as bright.. I honestly have no such problem with the multibeam LED on my Mercedes. But that's also a bit different class to aftermarket LEDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 20 minutes ago, elbekko said: I honestly have no such problem with the multibeam LED on my Mercedes. But that's also a bit different class to aftermarket LEDs. Likewise. And the times I have thought they're performing a bit naff I get home and see the lense is plastered with dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 7 hours ago, =jon= said: There's something 'weird' with LED and HID lights in certain lights - especially in dusk, and when the road is damp - it seems to suck all of the light up and makes you think there's something wrong with the headlights... You are right - certain tarmac colours do it too - i.e. the M20 in Kent has a lot of brown coloured tarmac and its much harder on that than when on proper black tarmac! Its a funny one because I really didnt like it initially, but I could see. I think its the fact that in dawn/dusk light, halogens give a comforting yellow hue.. the LEDs dont, but you can still see... I almost had to train my mind that it was ok! On full beam I have two halogen spotlights so I dont have such an issue then but obviously thats off when travelling in heavy traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 It appears a moot point, if this is real (screen shot from a friend’s post on Facebook, new UK legislation): 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Looks like it's authentic: Section 4.1.4: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) Its still saying the same things and talking about conversion of the headlamp unit, not replacement with a full LED headlamp. So not an issue if you replace the whole headlamp for one designed for LEDs (and properly E marked etc) Edited January 12, 2021 by reb78 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 48 minutes ago, Snagger said: It appears a moot point, if this is real (screen shot from a friend’s post on Facebook, new UK legislation): That’s the one I’d seen and was trying to find. But as posted afterwards that’s about the conversion ‘bulbs’ rather than a complete unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Still relevant as it basically outlaws the bulbs that I linked up above from my interpretation of it. I'd be curious to see what happens at the next MOT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Not that it's really relevant to me, but would that apply only to the low-beam lamps, or also the high-beam lamps as found in fe. a P38, where there's a separate set of H1s for the high beams? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, elbekko said: Not that it's really relevant to me, but would that apply only to the low-beam lamps, or also the high-beam lamps as found in fe. a P38, where there's a separate set of H1s for the high beams? The wording just specifies "headlamp units", nothing about the beam - so looks like yes it would, even if the main beam is a completely separate housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Doesn't the p38 use H4's for dip and high and then has additional units which act rather like aux spot lights with I think H1's in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Ed Poore said: Still relevant as it basically outlaws the bulbs that I linked up above from my interpretation of it. I'd be curious to see what happens at the next MOT. Even a conversion from a standard filament bulb to an LED bulb in a side/ tail light is illegal. So I was informed when I rang the MoD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 4 hours ago, Snagger said: It appears a moot point, if this is real (screen shot from a friend’s post on Facebook, new UK legislation): Must have been updated, here is my post from the inspection manual, earlier in this thread: ....and here is the link directly to the section in the inspection manual, confirming the above: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-1-4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 19 minutes ago, mmgemini said: MoD Ministry of Defence ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 57 minutes ago, Anderzander said: Ministry of Defence ? I was wondering what the MoD had to do with it too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 There are revisions to the testers manual, the addition of LED bulbs used in halogen headlamps, in addition to the original HID reference is just one. I think they just left LED out of the original text in error, in practice nothing has really changed. As I said earlier, most (all probably) Halogen headlamps converted to use HIDs or LEDs give an incorrect beam pattern, this alone is enough to fail "Beam image obviously incorrect" without the "Light source and lamp not compatible" failure. This does not affect headlamps originally designed to take HIDs or LEDs providing they show a correct beam pattern. LED bulbs in any other light units are not covered as they are not checked for beam pattern like headlamps are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 42 minutes ago, pat_pending said: As I said earlier, most (all probably) Halogen headlamps converted to use HIDs or LEDs give an incorrect beam pattern, this alone is enough to fail "Beam image obviously incorrect" without the "Light source and lamp not compatible" failure. Many will give far better beam patterns with much better cut off. Seen it in person multiple times on different vehicles. Some don't I agree, but you can't tarnish all with the same brush IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said: Many will give far better beam patterns with much better cut off. Seen it in person multiple times on different vehicles. Some don't I agree, but you can't tarnish all with the same brush IMO. I'd certainly say genuine HID/LED units give a very good throw of light with a sharp, almost too sharp cut off. However I can't remember seeing a converted headlamp that didn't have a "torch" beam. Not saying they don't exist, and I've seen more HID conversions than LED, just that's my experience. It's not the main part of my job, but I still do about 70 MOTs a month so I do see a lot of headlights! HID conversions were very popular a few years ago and they always failed the beam pattern test, quite a few had no main beam either as the single filament HID replaced the twin dip/main halogen bulb. I'm not convinced current aftermarket LEDs are any better, considering the cost, than a good halogen. I've got Ring ultima bulbs in both the Freelander and the 110, the 110 also has Wipac crystals and uprated/relayed wiring, I've never found the headlamps inadequate in either vehicle. Auxiliary lamps are a different matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 1 hour ago, pat_pending said: I'd certainly say genuine HID/LED units give a very good throw of light with a sharp, almost too sharp cut off. However I can't remember seeing a converted headlamp that didn't have a "torch" beam. Not saying they don't exist, and I've seen more HID conversions than LED, just that's my experience. It's not the main part of my job, but I still do about 70 MOTs a month so I do see a lot of headlights! HID conversions were very popular a few years ago and they always failed the beam pattern test, quite a few had no main beam either as the single filament HID replaced the twin dip/main halogen bulb. I'm not convinced current aftermarket LEDs are any better, considering the cost, than a good halogen. I've got Ring ultima bulbs in both the Freelander and the 110, the 110 also has Wipac crystals and uprated/relayed wiring, I've never found the headlamps inadequate in either vehicle. Auxiliary lamps are a different matter. This was a number of years back. And note it isn't on a public road. LED in the right hand/drivers lamp, Osram Nightbreaker halogen in the left hand lamp. The LED certainly light the ground up better to the eye. You can sort of see this in the photo, note where the right hand bank grass gets longer (directly above the p in the photobucket stamp), you can see the ground is illuminated better. From the drivers seat this was vastly noticeable. A real big leap in illumination. From the front view, note the LED actually has less glare than the halogen. The halogens are aligned and recently MoT tested. I did get the MoT station to check the LED alignment and it was bang on according to their test machine. With LEDs in both lamps the cut off is clean (I don't have a pic of the halogens, but it looked essentially the same). But you can clearly see they are not a torch beam, nor would they be dazzling on coming traffic. These were H4 bulbs, but the LEDs are placed to align with the halogen filament. One LED is also hooded for the dip beam. The lenses also had scatter shields: I do agree there are many designs of LED bulb which don't work well and some lamps will not work as well either. But get the right combo and they are fine. Remember halogen bulbs are not identical, the filament is a different size and location across brands and types. So the beam can vary even with a halogen bulb. It is this reason Maglite torches have an adjustable focus, to overcome the short comings of halogen bulbs and the variance in manufacture. I have tried the above bulbs in some Wipac Land Rover lamps (smooth mirror and cut lens type). They worked well in those too. The amount more light was less than the Subaru. I can only conclude the Wipac was maybe a more efficient design. But they still felt like an improvement, just not such a big one. The beam pattern was 100% the same with the LEDs however, including the same beam artefacts the halogen products, but the cutoff was clean, sharp and in the same place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 It is unfortunate and even unfair that the high quality LED bulbs like your are banned in a one-size-fits-all manner. The cheaper types did have pattern problems and poor output, but the same is true of most of the cheap complete lamp LED units, yet they are not impacted by this rule. It’s poor legislation, though the intention was good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missingsid Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Just to add another area of topic (maybe not useful?). I recently had the pleasure if driving in the recent mild fog/mist on the M4 to get my wife to work. It was very noticeable that the newer cars with very bright white beam headlights (can't say what type) were so bright as to be a hindrance in the conditions and would be dangerous in thicker fog. Obviously this is only relevant in that the drivers were not using front fog lights and turned off headlights so more an education thing but then most people drive with both on not either or nowadays. It is also noticeable that these same cars are dazzling 1st lane car drivers when they are overtaking in the 2nd or 3rd lanes as although the dip beam alignment is correct the lane positioning means the lane one car is in the kick up of the pattern. Many times the inside of my car was in daylight not good for the night vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 5 hours ago, Snagger said: It is unfortunate and even unfair that the high quality LED bulbs like your are banned in a one-size-fits-all manner. The cheaper types did have pattern problems and poor output, but the same is true of most of the cheap complete lamp LED units, yet they are not impacted by this rule. It’s poor legislation, though the intention was good. They’d still get picked up on the poor pattern though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmgemini Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 16 hours ago, Anderzander said: Ministry of Defence ? Forgive me fot my age lol Yes it should be MoT 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 4 hours ago, landroversforever said: They’d still get picked up on the poor pattern though. Oh, I’m not the type to suggest breaking the rules “because...”. They’re there for a reason, not always well thought out, but rarely very punitive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 19 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said: These were H4 bulbs, but the LEDs are placed to align with the halogen filament. One LED is also hooded for the dip beam. Interesting, I've not seen LEDs like that before. What was the cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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