Coding of injectors - Not necessarily LR related

[Peaklander]

Apologies that this isn't LR related but my question is about Bosch common rail diesel injectors, fitted to a Honda 2.2 CDTi engine. I am replacing them as part of a cam chain and oil chain overhaul.

The question is about coding. Whilst I have a cheapo code reader, I don't have the HDS software but hope I can get the codes written at a local garage.

I believe that the codes are used to compensate for manufacturing tolerances and thus used to inform the ECU of the specific operating characteristics of a particular injector. From that I'm hoping that by not updating the codes until the vehicle can be driven, I am only losing a small amount of performance rather than risking some major malfunction.

Can I install the new injectors and then expect the engine to fire and then drive somewhere to get the codes updated? Will this cause any problems or am I correct and they are used for fine tuning and so aren't essential immediately?

I trust this forum far more than anywhere else, hence asking here first rather than in a Honda specific place.

Thanks

 

[JohnnoK]

8 hours ago, Peaklander said:

Can I install the new injectors and then expect the engine to fire and then drive somewhere to get the codes updated? Will this cause any problems or am I correct and they are used for fine tuning and so aren't essential immediately?

 

Whilst I am not familiar with the Honda in question, from a Td5 owner's point of view, the engine will start and run quite fine with incorrectly coded injectors, the coding is as you say, for fine tuning.

When I replaced my head, I discovered the injectors fitted were not even listed in the ECU, let alone in order, and it ran fine, blown head gasket notwithstanding...

[L19MUD]

I would expect it to run as well. Maybe not as well as that TD5 though!

[Peaklander]

Thanks guys. That makes me feel better. These fancy injectors are way outside my knowledge. The job so far has been a pig to do. The cam cover won't come off without the injectors out. There's no wiggle room because of the shape - they can only come up. Two loosened with the engine running and the clamps slackned but two were stuck. I approached ten local-ish garages and one had a slide hammer and was willing to lend it and they popped up with very little effort.

The crank pulley bolt needed to be cracked using the starter and a breaker bar. I broke the first bar at the knuckle with muscle power alone. The sump will only come out if the subframe is lowered slightly. Oh for a simpler 300TDi...

[smallfry]

How old is the Honda ?

I run old Vauxhalls, and I have done this without problem. These can have a choice of injectors, but if the numbers on the injectors are all the same (a set)and are the same as the originals, you shouldnt have a problem.

Im not 100% on this, but I thought this coding was only for later piezo injectors.

[Peaklander]

Its a 58 plate (262K miles). Bought as a budget car 😀.

They are identical injectors with the same part number but the reconditioned Bosch ones are provided with the codes, each one has a tag.

Bosch refer to them as IMA codes. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Peaklander
Added IMA

[Peaklander]

This is the suspected cam chain or oil pump chain... link

[Tanuki]

It'll run, sure - but with the injector-profiling unmatched to the original ECU fuelling-profile it will be less-than-optimally-efficient, less-smooth-than-it-could-be, and potentially wasting fuel and giving the catalytic-converter/emissions-control-system a hard time with over/underfuelling.

Why do half-a-job when you could get the thing properly matched?

[Peaklander]

 

23 hours ago, Peaklander said:

Can I install the new injectors and then expect the engine to fire and then drive somewhere to get the codes updated?

I'm not going to do half a job.

[landroversforever]

On 12/24/2020 at 6:15 PM, Tanuki said:

Why do half-a-job when you could get the thing properly matched?

He's not, he's saying he'll have them coded in at a garage when he can get it there. 

As for what difference it makes.... certainly on the Td5 they'll run happily without being coded and I bet 99% of people couldn't actually tell the difference in how its running. They're precision things, so the tiniest differences in manufacturing tolerances are going to be minuscule. 

[geoffbeaumont]

What sort of life has this thing had? We've had a couple of civics, and they were lovely cars to work on (though rarely in need of much). Everything easily accessible and never seized.

[Peaklander]

It’s only been in our family for a few weeks. I said it would be a good bet as I have confidence in Hondas but still a gamble.

I have got as far as removing the timing case (so a long way) and can now see the cam chain and associated parts.

Some of the (many) fixings to be removed have been very difficult so say the least but they are off!

Currently trying to see what's actually wrong. The tensioner appears to jump back to ‘no tension’ as the crank is turned.

Don’t know how much to post as this isn’t really the right forum  😁

Edit: here goes... chain noise in running engine

and ... chain and tensioner 'in action'

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Peaklander
Added links

[Peaklander]

This is the comparison between the old and new cam chains. Not only is the chain about a whole link longer (around the loop), it has some very loose pins but not all of them are loose. It's a little strange tbh as I would have assumed they all wear in the same way.

This is a 'DID' brand chain which I think is original equipment but the cam guides have certainly been changed since the car was built (2008) as the die stamps are 2013 and 2014. I can only assume that the chain was also changed then but that implies that the chain has stretched in about six years.

The much shorter oil pump chain hasn't stretched at all (also 'DID') but I have changed it, along with the guides and the tensioner.

 

I have been busy cleaning the injector bores with carb cleaner and rags wrapped around a suitable tool. They have a hard coating of carbon on much of the lower part.

The whole job is suffering from specification creep as I am now looking at the intercooler and probably the turbo. One thing is it makes me yearn for my 300TDi. That is a whole lot easier to access and work on. Removing the sump and timing case on this CR-V requires two engine mounts to be removed, an engine crane, the sub frame to be partially lowered and even then two pairs of eyes and hands.

 

[Ed Poore]

13 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

It's a little strange tbh as I would have assumed they all wear in the same way.

I wonder whether it's something to do with the fact that an engine will almost always stop in one of a few positions so naturally the cam chain would as well. Perhaps that's enough to stretch particular links because they'll be the ones taking most of the load when it starts back up again.

[Peaklander]

Yes that sounds like a good reason. 

 

[Peaklander]

The CR-V is almost back together now after a few weeks of turmoil. How different it is working on an engine that sits fairly tight in the engine bay. As well as replacing the cam and oil pump chains, I managed to remove the turbo and stripped it down in order to clean the VNT mechanism which was coked-up and there had been a turbo over-boost fault the last time the car was driven.

Along the way I lost a turbo nut into the exhaust and it rattled its way along to the front end of the cat as I tried to work out where it was. I had to cut-off the cat in order to tip it back out. I also had two M10x50 bolts left over. They were probably the only ones not labelled and it took hours of looking and thinking, before an extended session (at 1:30am) in front of a parts diagram indicated where they should have gone. Luckily there was only the intercooler to turbo pipe to move to fit them.

Generally I found things very hard work. The engine had to be lifted up and down to get stuff in and out. The sump is only removed with the front subframe lowered a few cm. The turbo will only come out with the engine in place (and lifted up and down) if all the stuff over the gearbox is removed, so that's battery and (rusted-on) box, gearshift cables, air box and pipes, fuel pipes, etc. etc.

I'll be glad to get back to my 110.

 

The new injectors haven't yet been coded to the ecu but starting was no problem.

 

The first video is the engine running before I started the job. 

The second is the start after the injectors were plugged into the loom after a few cranks on the starter to get diesel up and hopefully some oil into the turbo.

Compare and contrast 😁

 

 

 

 

 

[L19MUD]

Good job! Working on other vehicles reminds you just how easy it is to work on a 200/300tdi in comparison. Space to get to things is a nightmare on all of the modern Land Rover stuff 

[Mo Murphy]

Yup, it looks a proper nightmare Peaklander, rather you than me ! 🤣

Mo

[cackshifter]

Well! It must feel better for that, that's for sure. Sounds like it's turned into quite a big job, but the home straight is a very satisfying place to be. Well done.

[Peaklander]

Thanks @cackshifter. I haven't quite handed it back yet to daughter #1. The last few days have been spent refitting the front bumper and various plastic guards and then I went for a proper drive and flooded the top of the engine with diesel. I hadn't quite got the union lined-up on one injector (short pipes off the common-rail) and had it tight but leaking.

It was a novice mistake, where I had tightened the straight end of the pipe rather than the union at the other end which was on a bend. Must have pulled it off centre. So I removed it and tweaked the pipe a little. You can imagine where the diesel went after the top of the engine. All underneath was coated and the the mist had come back up all over the tailgate. So that took some cleaning. Then I hosed down the drive but managed not to look at the road.

Second test drive had some 'smoke' coming up from the rear of the engine which I hope isn't an oil drip (turbo). It might be a poor exhaust joint as there are several high up. After the manifold theres a 90deg bend then a pre-cat with another bend down to the flexible coupling. Hope it's nothing major.

I then looked at the rear end and saw this joint at the mid to rear box connection. The mid box (genuine Honda) is all in great condition except for the welded flange where the material is presumably compromised at welding. I hope to fit a new flange by cutting it in half and welding back. (well not me, a proper welder).

 

[cackshifter]

How did you clean the VNT by the way?

[Peaklander]

Carb spray and lots of wiping. The ring, the three little support wheels for it and three pins that are the axles for those wheels, all lift off. The rest of the top side and the vanes and the turbine fan were cleaned with a toothbrush and rags. The carb spray instantly dissolves the carbon. I kept looking at pics of new ones to drive me to get it cleaner.

[cackshifter]

Thanks, interesting and it was obviously effective

[Peaklander]

I haven't yet had a good blast in the car but yes, I hope the turbo is OK. I didn't disassemble it any more than I described, so those three torx screwheads that you can see were left in. I'd had no dramas in splitting it to get that far and I didn't want to create one unnecessarily.

After cleaning I looked hard at each of the vane actuators and their corresponding slot in the ring. I can see one that appears more worn than the others so that vane would have a tiny bit of a delay in movement. I hope I have saved the cost of an exchange unit.

[Peaklander]

The saga continued as the car developed a leak in a power steering pipe that's exposed to crud where it runs on the subframe. As I was sorting that the starter motor failed (solenoid). To remove it needed amongst other things, the egr valve and pipes to be removed. So I ended-up cleaning a mountain of carbon from the egr port into the throttle body / inlet manifold, as well as rebuilding the starter and the job therefore extended by many days.

Had a little scare about fumes and oil and stuff, documented here...

Handed the car back and the family are very pleased with the way it runs. To address the title of this thread, I had no idea if ECU controlled injectors would even work if they'd been changed and the new ones not coded. In fact the engine started on the first crank and you'd never know that they aren't coded. One day they will be, when it's connected to a suitable diagnostic system but I doubt the £30 - £50 it will cost will be recouped very quickly with better fuel economy.

Anyway I can now go back to working on my 110 300TDi but to work in such depth on a more modern engine has been a real learning experience and it's great to now have a bit of know-how.