Improved Tdi cooling

[uninformed]

Hey all,

 

who here has upgraded their radiator to a larger size and gone front mount intercooler? 
 

has anyone put a Td5 radiator/intercooler set up in a Tdi? 

pics of either would be great.

 

I know Alisport have an offering for the Tdi , the radiator being 70mm wider . They say it uses factory hoses , I guess they just stretch them over?

 

cheers

Serg

[miketomcat]

The stock TDI radiator is more than enough to cool it. I have a cheap Chinese Ali radiator (standard size) and if anything it works to well. Mine take ages to warm up this time of year and has no problem towing in summer.

Mike

[Ozzy50]

Yeah I would say that if you need extra cooling on your tdi then there’s a problem somewhere, I always remove the viscous fan in favour of electric and it hardly ever gets switched on 

[uninformed]

Some of us live in countries that get above 25c and have relative humidity above 65% in summer.

 

The factory 300Tdi cooling, when in good working order, is marginal at best. Fact! The factory intercooler is undersized for the boost they run. Even Mike of Britannica Restorations (one of yours) talks about this.

 

I also have a HS 2.8 Tgv that produces more boost and power (equals heat)

 

 

[Bowie69]

I'd love to hear more about your personal experiences of an overheating TDI, but the collective wisdom on here suggests that it is quite sufficient, even for 50C days in the Sahara -that is what it was designed for after all.

Where is the truck being used? Is the rest of the cooling system in good order? Have you checked the temperature, or are you going by the gauge? 

Humid days are not a worry, as it actually helps the cooling, and in recent years we top 35C during summer, and I don't remember there being a spate of melted 300TDIs being reported on here.

[uninformed]

Plenty of Tdi head gaskets etc in Australia. I had one go on my 300Tdi and this vehicle was log book serviced, coolant flushed every 12-18 months etc. 

With brand new radiator, thermostat, hoses and a completely new HS 2.8 Tgv I struggled to keep the temperature below 93 when all but putting along at 60km/h no payload . Measured at t/stat housing and with a proper gauge! The factory gauge was a freaking joke! Sits in normal position from 90-105c by the time you see it move it’s too late. Cutting a vent in left guard helped wonders as the Land Rover engine bay is carp air flow and causes air dam. Having a vent in left guard ( same spot as 200Tdi  intake) allowed the exit of hot air, especially from turbo and more flow through radiator. Proven by a drop in temp across speeds/loads etc and even improvement at idle in traffic 

I laugh when I hear the old “they were tested in the Sahara” , yes they were but that doesn’t provide the real world data that numbers sold and used x years does. 
 

Why did LR change to full width and front mount intercooler on a better designed engine (Td5) with better water flow???

 

As for your weather, while I’m sure you have some freak hot days on record it’s no where near the averages we see here. 
 

As for humidity. Sorry that is incorrect 
 

 

[Chicken Drumstick]

2 hours ago, Ozzy50 said:

Yeah I would say that if you need extra cooling on your tdi then there’s a problem somewhere, I always remove the viscous fan in favour of electric and it hardly ever gets switched on 

I suspect this depends what you are doing. In the UK, yes the Tdi can seem to take long to warm up and for normal road use not really need additional cooling or air flow from a fan. But go laning (using low range) or do a lot of work in low range such as setting up a trials event and they will run a heck of a lot hotter. And will need a fan.

FMIC and tuned pumps can also make a big difference too. The FMIC will restrict airflow somewhat to the rad and more highly tuned engines will run high EGT's, meaning more heat in the head and block.

[Chicken Drumstick]

5 hours ago, uninformed said:

Hey all,

 

who here has upgraded their radiator to a larger size and gone front mount intercooler? 
 

has anyone put a Td5 radiator/intercooler set up in a Tdi? 

pics of either would be great.

 

I know Alisport have an offering for the Tdi , the radiator being 70mm wider . They say it uses factory hoses , I guess they just stretch them over?

 

cheers

Serg

A bigger radiator will never hurt. If you are having issues, it is worth a try. Is the pump tuned on the Tdi? Does it smoke much and what sort of EGT's are you seeing over distance? I suspect in hot climates like yours, you can't get away with some of the stuff we do here. I'm also suspecting that you might well run at higher speeds for longer distances than we do in the UK.

[uninformed]

12 minutes ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

A bigger radiator will never hurt. If you are having issues, it is worth a try. Is the pump tuned on the Tdi? Does it smoke much and what sort of EGT's are you seeing over distance? I suspect in hot climates like yours, you can't get away with some of the stuff we do here. I'm also suspecting that you might well run at higher speeds for longer distances than we do in the UK.

My Tdi was stock except for a larger exhaust , which improved turbo spool up but decreased egts a touch. Mild pump tune was done with NO black smoke after HG was replaced. The engine eventually ate the crank as big end bearings failed ( known to be from bad batch from factory in a 3 month or so period 1998 build). In went the HS 2.8 Tgv. Stock other than exhaust. After making note of reading of egt and temp gauge, egt was never a problem. Get a reasonable temp gauge that has a scale of numbers rather than C-N-H and you can watch the changes real time with speed/Load/weather etc. 

Yes in Australia we probably do greater distances at speed or towing etc, but all within the vehicles specifications and it shows the limits of the cooling system. 
 

Fin pitch is important when stacking radiators in front of each other, so is exit air flow. 

 

 

[Bowie69]

1 hour ago, uninformed said:

As for humidity. Sorry that is incorrect 

Can you cite something? All the scientific studies I have seen, and just common sense says humid = better cooling.

[uninformed]

54 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Can you cite something? All the scientific studies I have seen, and just common sense says humid = better cooling.

I’m trying to get some information from some engineers I know because my explanation won’t do. I understand water is more efficient than air ( think of a hot piece of steel dropped into a bucket of water 20c or a bucket of air 20c) it’s specific heat capacity is over 4 times greater than air. But that’s not what is happening with water in a radiator and humid air 

in short humid air is less dense.

here is a quick grab from the web.

https://www.electronics-cooling.com/2003/11/the-thermal-conductivity-of-moist-air/

 

 

[monkie]

An increase in humidity does decrease the ability of air to transfer heat I'm afraid:

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.applthermaleng.2016.12.030

[Ozzy50]

2 hours ago, Chicken Drumstick said:

I suspect this depends what you are doing. In the UK, yes the Tdi can seem to take long to warm up and for normal road use not really need additional cooling or air flow from a fan. But go laning (using low range) or do a lot of work in low range such as setting up a trials event and they will run a heck of a lot hotter. And will need a fan.

FMIC and tuned pumps can also make a big difference too. The FMIC will restrict airflow somewhat to the rad and more highly tuned engines will run high EGT's, meaning more heat in the head and block.

Sorry but I’ve never overheated a tdi in my life , laning , pay n play in serious mud , towing 3.5 ton over the hills in Buxton !

[uninformed]

So hopefully we can put all the non asked questions to bed and get back to my original question....

[miketomcat]

Sorry if I've missed something here but do you have a 2.5 TDI or a 2.8 tgv because they are not the same beast. A tgv in Australia could well have cooling issues but a TDI in the UK will not hense my response. So I apologize if my original answer didn't help but I was basing my answer on the information given.

Mike

[Nonimouse]

I have used a 200tdi/300tdi in some hot places. 

I found that an extra row added to the core of the radiator worked well, or for 50+, simply find a 2.5 TD rad out of an RRC and add an extra row. This rad is about as thick as they come and yet still fits in the 'standard' frame.

The 50+ was whilst working for the BGS in the Danekil, where we had highs of 55

Whilst working in Aus, up in the Northern Territories, with highs of 42 and average of 35, our 300 tdi 130 (towing a 2 tonne chipper) never had issues with the standard rad

All temps in Centigrade

[Ozzy50]

Likewise! @miketomcat
so full width Ali rad is what you need then ? 
deeper core with bigger tanks , throw the viscous fan and fit a fixed unit plus an electric fan on the front . 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Ozzy50

[uninformed]

Guys you don’t need to solve my cooling issues. If you don’t need more cooling great, but don’t tell me I don’t need it based on your useage!

 

im interested in those that have actually fitted the larger set ups and how they went about install and plumbing. 

[Jon W]

@darthdickyhas a 2.8tgv on an autobox and can confirm that they do get hot going up hill. As seen by movement on a proper vdo gauge. His has an alisport rad in it not sure on the size though as he has a alisport intercooler but not the front mounted type (has an 8274 winch in the way). 

TD5 rad could be an option but are the pipes going to cause problems due to positioning? I think they are quite a good rad as standard and a lot of the cummins conversions use this rad setup. 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Jon W

[Eightpot]

I've put a td5 rad/intercooler on, but in front of an Isuzuz 2.8 which isn't too disimilar- I wouldn't say it was any improvement over a tdi rad though without doing something more scientific than driving round with it isn't much help.

I did drive round Sudan with it though in 50 degrees and did manage to boil the engine in soft going sand, I've never overheated a properly working 200/300tdi set up in similar temps, so I do disagree with the thought they are undercooled.

The obvious difficulty with the td5 intercooler is routing the pipework

[Chicken Drumstick]

45 minutes ago, Ozzy50 said:

Sorry but I’ve never overheated a tdi in my life , laning , pay n play in serious mud , towing 3.5 ton over the hills in Buxton !

It does happen. Although I didn't say overheat, I said run hotter. Not seen it on just one, but many many examples of different states of tune/use. My current setup will run hot if you keep wide open throttle for prolonged periods, but I can get away with it for my use and our climate. I doubt it would be suitable in Oz.

[Sigi_H]

Just to consider:

If revs are low, the speed of the cooling pump is also low and cooling will be bad. The reason is not always the size of the radiator.

Running the engine one gear lower can solve the problem better than a bigger radiator

[FridgeFreezer]

14 minutes ago, Sigi_H said:

Running the engine one gear lower can solve the problem better than a bigger radiator

TBH that's only masking the issue though - if the radiator can't cool the engine in normal use then (if there's no problems with the system) the radiator is not big enough / efficient enough.

I can't remember what @TSD runs in his Ibex with the TGV lump but I have a feeling it's an uprated rad.

 

I've heard theories that the TDi lumps with electric fans is a combo that leads to head gasket failure as the sudden temperature change from a big electric fan kicking in causes uneven expansion/contraction between the head and block (ali head, cast iron block) and agitates the gasket. Don't know if @uninformed is running viscous or electric or what, might make a difference...

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, uninformed said:

Guys you don’t need to solve my cooling issues. If you don’t need more cooling great, but don’t tell me I don’t need it based on your useage!

 

im interested in those that have actually fitted the larger set ups and how they went about install and plumbing. 

Listening to experiences is the best way to work out what you need. If you are having cooling problems in an area with average temps of 29 degrees C in it's hottest month, then you have a problem. And it would be best to sort it out

[TSD]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I can't remember what @TSD runs in his Ibex with the TGV lump but I have a feeling it's an uprated rad.

For most of its life my TGV has had a standard (W x H) shape, but 4 core rad, alongside a standard shape but thicker alisport intercooler. I have seen the temp gauge go above it's normal position only a couple of times, both on exceptionally hot (for the uk) days. Once was towing miketomcat and family in his fully loaded 90, with his fully loaded camp trailer on the back of that. The other was a long motorway drag at 'some pace', fully loaded and pulling 33s and overdrive. I've only hit the limits of a healthy 200tdi cooling system once, blatting up a mountain in Spain at midday in midsummer, with the aircon running at maximum.

When the rad failed, I was in a hurry and feeling tight, so fitted a cheap ebay alu rad. It hasn't shown any problems, but I wouldn't try to cross the empty quarter with it either.

My take is that the cooling system has a limited range of control, and it's only a proportionally controlled system - the amount the stat is open depends on the temperature. So it does not, and cannot, maintain a constant temperature across a range of conditions. That's why the OEM gauge is sluggish across the middle of its range - so idiots don't freak out every time the needle goes a little bit above or below normal. If the temperature rises a little, and stays there, then it is still within the controlled range and doesn't mean there is a problem as such, just that the system is working harder. Of course, if the temperature continues to rise, then the limits of the cooling system has been reached, and that's obviously an immediate problem.

For best cooling, I'd want to avoid a full width intercooler (or aircon rad, oil cooler, ps cooler, big spotlights etc.) in front of the rad. Reducing the airflow, and heating it at the same time seems like it would more than cancel the benefit of a better intercooler, as far as cooling goes. A thicker core (with well chosen core type) will give more margin, but the wrong core might cause more issues than it solves if it reduces the airflow at speed, clogs too easily, or is just too easily damaged. I'd find a 'man in a dirty shed' radiator builder (all too rare in this country now, it seems) and get their ideas on what they could build using an original brass tanked LR rad as a starting point. I've done that for previous vehicles and I would have done it for the TGV if I hadn't been in a hurry to get back on the road.