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Improved Tdi cooling


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59 minutes ago, TSD said:

I'd find a 'man in a dirty shed' radiator builder (all too rare in this country now, it seems) and get their ideas on what they could build using an original brass tanked LR rad as a starting point. I've done that for previous vehicles and I would have done it for the TGV if I hadn't been in a hurry to get back on the road.

Arrow Radiators. Countrywide collection of dirty sheds and blokes that know there stuff.

In Australia I recon there are loads - it being warmer than here

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3 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Listening to experiences is the best way to work out what you need. If you are having cooling problems in an area with average temps of 29 degrees C in it's hottest month, then you have a problem. And it would be best to sort it out

Yet no matter how much info I give most are not listening to me.

 

this is not my first time. 

 

reminds me of when the Australian Army told LR their track rods were undersized and LR would have none of it...

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It seems to me like you have made your mind up to get a bigger radiator, give it a go and see what happens. It might work, it might not if you have an underlying issue as some of the learned people on here have said. 

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I run a 200tdi rad with a deeper core. That might be an option? It retains the same fittings etc then. I believe a particular caterpillar core will fit. 
 

Did I need it? maybe not... But if the stat works properly it wont overcool and gives me extra capacity if I need it ever.

I use a standard size 'high flow' Brunel Intercooler. The FIP is tweaked plus boost etc and when the head came off for a HG change a couple of years ago, all was good internally. 

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3 hours ago, monkie said:

It seems to me like you have made your mind up to get a bigger radiator, give it a go and see what happens. It might work, it might not if you have an underlying issue as some of the learned people on here have said. 

You and others assume I haven’t been through the system. Refusing to believe that conditions outside of your own put the system on its limits quicker and more regularly. I am not an isolated case here in Australia 
 

No one has mentioned the difference in water flow between the the 200 and 300 Tdi, or the power increase etc. 

No one has mentioned fin pitch importance when stacking radiators in front of each other. 

No one has mentioned air damming in the engine bay 

Only one person brought up tyre size, no one questioned lift or gearing etc

It’s repeated the system is more than adequate , yet I’m advised to do things like remove the viscous fan (bad) drop gears to increase rpm /water flow (completely impractical) , add a thicker core (which can be diminishing returns as the air heats up as it passes through the radiator doing little to the rear)

So tell me again what makes these so call learned people more educated in MY situation. 
 

So many assumptions have been made. 

I should not have to answer a ton of questions to prove/justify my first. 
 

it’s pretty simple , most of the replies can’t actually help with my original question but are playing confirmation bias with themselves. 

Guys put yourself in my shoes, You ask a simple question for feedback/installation on a mod, then get pretty much everyone saying (without any real knowledge of your conditions or experience or your own knowledge) that you must have problems in your system and basically you don’t know what you are doing... you answer some questions to try and get back on point and the same just continues. 

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6 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

And your attitude won't be.

I answered your original questions, you disagreed with my answer , I had to prove to you that I was correct in one of them and all you can add is your out, like you can’t be bothered adding your presence here.

oh how I’m not worthy 

 

pot, kettle , black...

 

you simply could have chosen to not reply and be done, why feel the need to announce it to everyone?

 

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11 hours ago, Eightpot said:

I've put a td5 rad/intercooler on, but in front of an Isuzuz 2.8 which isn't too disimilar- I wouldn't say it was any improvement over a tdi rad though without doing something more scientific than driving round with it isn't much help.

I did drive round Sudan with it though in 50 degrees and did manage to boil the engine in soft going sand, I've never overheated a properly working 200/300tdi set up in similar temps, so I do disagree with the thought they are undercooled.

The obvious difficulty with the td5 intercooler is routing the pipework

Yes the change in inlet/outlet for both radiator and intercooler is far from ideal ,but I had heard of a D2 radiator in a D1 so was wondering if any had done similar to a Defender and their plumbing solutions.

 

I had used my 110 as my daily driver/work vehicle, towing 1.9t daily (Well within LR specs) but rarely load in/on vehicle. I’ve had issues with and without the trailer on. As I will continue to state, and very clear by the feedback here on LR4x4, that it is more common to push the limits of the cooling in Australia than the UK. No surprise there. 
 

Whilst I do have a HS 2.8Tgv, other 300Tdi users have issue in Oz as well.

The 200Tdi had a better water pump and block design at water entry point and produced less power, not to mention its location in engine bay. Never really hear of problems with them here, only 300Tdi

I am pretty sympathetic with driving to conditions especially heat. 

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9 hours ago, TSD said:

For most of its life my TGV has had a standard (W x H) shape, but 4 core rad, alongside a standard shape but thicker alisport intercooler. I have seen the temp gauge go above it's normal position only a couple of times, both on exceptionally hot (for the uk) days. Once was towing miketomcat and family in his fully loaded 90, with his fully loaded camp trailer on the back of that. The other was a long motorway drag at 'some pace', fully loaded and pulling 33s and overdrive. I've only hit the limits of a healthy 200tdi cooling system once, blatting up a mountain in Spain at midday in midsummer, with the aircon running at maximum.

When the rad failed, I was in a hurry and feeling tight, so fitted a cheap ebay alu rad. It hasn't shown any problems, but I wouldn't try to cross the empty quarter with it either.

My take is that the cooling system has a limited range of control, and it's only a proportionally controlled system - the amount the stat is open depends on the temperature. So it does not, and cannot, maintain a constant temperature across a range of conditions. That's why the OEM gauge is sluggish across the middle of its range - so idiots don't freak out every time the needle goes a little bit above or below normal. If the temperature rises a little, and stays there, then it is still within the controlled range and doesn't mean there is a problem as such, just that the system is working harder. Of course, if the temperature continues to rise, then the limits of the cooling system has been reached, and that's obviously an immediate problem.

For best cooling, I'd want to avoid a full width intercooler (or aircon rad, oil cooler, ps cooler, big spotlights etc.) in front of the rad. Reducing the airflow, and heating it at the same time seems like it would more than cancel the benefit of a better intercooler, as far as cooling goes. A thicker core (with well chosen core type) will give more margin, but the wrong core might cause more issues than it solves if it reduces the airflow at speed, clogs too easily, or is just too easily damaged. I'd find a 'man in a dirty shed' radiator builder (all too rare in this country now, it seems) and get their ideas on what they could build using an original brass tanked LR rad as a starting point. I've done that for previous vehicles and I would have done it for the TGV if I hadn't been in a hurry to get back on the road.

You are absolutely correct regarding limited range of control. When compared to other competitors systems it is under done. Look at Toyota and Nissan rad sizes and coolant capacity. I understand how a t/stat works and found one that cracks 4-6 degrees c earlier. I also understand a engine has an optimal working temp for power, efficiency and reliability. But it’s better to be on or under that than over.

regarding the stock Tdi LR Defender gauge , I agree with your theory but in reality they set the range to broad, that is once it starts to move from the “Normal” position and you notice it, it is well past 100c and in bad territory (even though a pressurised system doesn’t “boil “ at 100c) It is common recommendation here in Oz to get rid of that horrible gauge. 
 

Another very common practice in Australia is to get the bleed hole in the divider that is about 15mm dia reduced to 3/4mm. We get too much bypass and water not getting cooled. It is however important for areas that see freezing conditions

 

we also run thicker cores, so can’t really go to that as already been done.

as I stated earlier my 300Tdi was well maintained and had issues, when I went to the 2.8 Tgv, I had out of good practice a new radiator installed (black expansion tank which are prone to splitting was earlier changed out, though a new cap installed, again good practice) I also had a thicker intercooler. So with a complete brand new engine , new radiator, new caps etc I had issues, which lead to the lower cracking thermostat and guard vent. These made the best change

 

im just looking for more security reliability given I’m completely rebuilding and customising my 110 from the ground up and want to do some touring in it when done

 

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57 minutes ago, uninformed said:

You and others assume I haven’t been through the system. Refusing to believe that conditions outside of your own put the system on its limits quicker and more regularly. I am not an isolated case here in Australia 

Speaking for myself, I have made no assumptions on what you have or haven't done, nor particularly care. Despite never having travelled to Australia (or the Arctic for that matter) I accept the wide range of ambient temperatures across our planet and there will be limits in extremes of conditions. 

1 hour ago, uninformed said:

pretty much everyone saying (without any real knowledge of your conditions or experience or your own knowledge) that you must have problems in your system and basically you don’t know what you are doing...

Why bother asking on this forum? No one has said you don't know what you are doing. I guess there is a forum in Australia where the members know better than us how hot it is compared to us here in the perpetual cold, wet and dark? I think most people have been trying to help you, it's your choice whether or not you want to listen the advice offered. 

Personally I have found the knowledge and experience of folks on here to be second to none. 

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9 minutes ago, monkie said:

 

Why bother asking on this forum? No one has said you don't know what you are doing. I guess there is a forum in Australia where the members know better than us how hot it is compared to us here in the perpetual cold, wet and dark? I think most people have been trying to help you, it's your choice whether or not you want to listen the advice offered. 

Personally I have found the knowledge and experience of folks on here to be second to none. 

I was on a large Australian based LR forum, I had added much contribution over the years, detailed gearbox rebuilds (many hrs in uploading photos) etc had shared what little knowledge I have AND my failures (most don’t). Even though the forum has ads they now require payment to participate. It also had a lot of the much more knowledgeable members move on due to the same dribble ie what car wax to use on new defenders, countless what springs should I use, Will my tyres rub etc. with little real tech being added. A few moved to Facebook groups which I reluctantly re joined (FB) but a lot just went about their lives 

 

as for here, I have been a member for many years had some good info here and there and figured since the UK is the home of LR AND the major cooling upgrade players that their would have been at least one person who has fitted full width rad to their Tdi 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, uninformed said:

I understand how a t/stat works and found one that cracks 4-6 degrees c earlier. I also understand a engine has an optimal working temp for power, efficiency and reliability.

 

24 minutes ago, uninformed said:

... I had issues, which lead to the lower cracking thermostat and guard vent. These made the best change

Clearly you don't. Over and out.

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12 minutes ago, TSD said:

 

Clearly you don't. Over and out.

I’ll try this again (some how got multiple replier quotes sorry)

I had checked the WaxStat ones that are factory fitted to the 300Tdi and 2.8  Tgv in hot water with a thermometer. If I recall they crack at 88c and continue to open until fully open at a higher temperature (sorry I can not recall what that temp was) The one I have is exactly the same design and physical dimensions as factory it just starts to open at 82~84c. Once fully open it does not flow more or less than the factory thermostat. So yes once all up to temp and full heat sink in the system then it won’t be much different, just got things working earlier. 
 

the guard vent made the most difference. 
 

so can you tell me what I’m missing re the tstat?

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FWIW,

 

I just heard back from one of my Engineer mates who sent me some papers on Thermal Conductivity of Humid Air. In short, the higher the ambient temperature the greater the difference in thermal efficiency between 0 RH and 100 RH (RH is relative humidity). 0 RH being more efficient than 100 RH. At zero degrees temp they are very close to each other, only getting further apart as the temperature rises. BUT IT IS VERY MINIMAL, and I do mean VERY.

 

On the other hand the higher the RH, you get a similar increase in heat capacity.

 

They pretty much cancel each other out by the looks. 

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6 minutes ago, Sigi_H said:

You found your real problem for yourself, without needing any recomendation. You will find the answer to your questions alone as well. No one can react properly when the information comes in bits and pieces. I'm out.

Yet I never asked what was wrong with my system or asked for diagnosis, if I had I would have put all my information in my first post.  
 

so many people saying “I’m out” yet won’t acknowledge they did not contribute to the original question. Saying they are only trying to help when not answering it, trying to find problems I didn’t bring up and then within my replies, only to site “ it’s never happened to me” as proof of argument.

 

I only answered people’s questions as they came up to try and get past a problem with my system to get back to my original question of who has fitted a bigger radiator etc. Surely with all the winch challenge guys etc and tuned up Tdis AND multiple upgraded radiator manufacturers in the UK I figured some here would have ?

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21 hours ago, uninformed said:

My Tdi was stock except for a larger exhaust , which improved turbo spool up but decreased egts a touch. Mild pump tune was done with NO black smoke after HG was replaced. The engine eventually ate the crank as big end bearings failed ( known to be from bad batch from factory in a 3 month or so period 1998 build). In went the HS 2.8 Tgv. Stock other than exhaust. After making note of reading of egt and temp gauge, egt was never a problem. Get a reasonable temp gauge that has a scale of numbers rather than C-N-H and you can watch the changes real time with speed/Load/weather etc. 

Yes in Australia we probably do greater distances at speed or towing etc, but all within the vehicles specifications and it shows the limits of the cooling system. 
 

Fin pitch is important when stacking radiators in front of each other, so is exit air flow. 

 

 

Oil cooler? - I dont have a TGV, but I have upgraded to a VNT turbo (on my 200tdi) and I have found that the oil temperature with this turbo seems to run a good bit higher - on hot long runs up to 20 degrees hotter! - this has a knock on effect to the water temperature due to I presume the oil cooler being part of the main radiator.

I had myself considered fitting an individual engine oil cooler on mine. I run a Madman EMS so I can see in some detail whats doing what..

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11 minutes ago, Maverik said:

Oil cooler? - I dont have a TGV, but I have upgraded to a VNT turbo (on my 200tdi) and I have found that the oil temperature with this turbo seems to run a good bit higher - on hot long runs up to 20 degrees hotter! - this has a knock on effect to the water temperature due to I presume the oil cooler being part of the main radiator.

I had myself considered fitting an individual engine oil cooler on mine. I run a Madman EMS so I can see in some detail whats doing what..

The HS 2.8 Tgv has an on block oil cooler. It does not use the radiator. 
 

but yes , absolutely agree with oil temps playing a roll, and 20c is a decent increase.  

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23 minutes ago, Maverik said:

Oil cooler? - I dont have a TGV, but I have upgraded to a VNT turbo (on my 200tdi) and I have found that the oil temperature with this turbo seems to run a good bit higher - on hot long runs up to 20 degrees hotter! - this has a knock on effect to the water temperature due to I presume the oil cooler being part of the main radiator.

I had myself considered fitting an individual engine oil cooler on mine. I run a Madman EMS so I can see in some detail whats doing what..

I was about to suggest adding a bit more science to this by instrumenting either side of the rad with some sort of temp sensor - I dislike the madman gauges but being able to see a bit more what's going on is helpful.

I think @Daan is the only person on here who's ever actually measured the temperature drop across a TDi intercooler rather than just jump to "uprated == better innit"

Likewise, instrumenting the cooling system could provide some information rather than assumptions. Temperature sensors / indicator labels are cheap.

You've asserted that bigger/thicker rads won't help much but then said the Japanese are better because they fit much bigger rads... which is it? What's so great about a Toyota or Nissan rad that it cools a bigger, heavier, more powerful truck perfectly? Can you replicate that design in a LR form factor?

Also, on the subject of the animosity in this thread - you've started a thread with incomplete information and what hence appeared to be a jumped-to assumption about inadequate radiators and then gotten stroppy when people have failed to guess your setup or what you've previously done to the vehicle. Rule #1: make it easy for people to help you.

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3 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I was about to suggest adding a bit more science to this by instrumenting either side of the rad with some sort of temp sensor - I dislike the madman gauges but being able to see a bit more what's going on is helpful.

I think @Daan is the only person on here who's ever actually measured the temperature drop across a TDi intercooler rather than just jump to "uprated == better innit"

Likewise, instrumenting the cooling system could provide some information rather than assumptions. Temperature sensors / indicator labels are cheap.

You've asserted that bigger/thicker rads won't help much but then said the Japanese are better because they fit much bigger rads... which is it? What's so great about a Toyota or Nissan rad that it cools a bigger, heavier, more powerful truck perfectly? Can you replicate that design in a LR form factor?

Also, on the subject of the animosity in this thread - you've started a thread with incomplete information and what hence appeared to be a jumped-to assumption about inadequate radiators and then gotten stroppy when people have failed to guess your setup or what you've previously done to the vehicle. Rule #1: make it easy for people to help you.

Regarding the Jap stuff, I wasn’t commenting on their thickness, but rather their frontal area. AND the coolant capacity. You choose to see it as a contradiction but no where did I say thicker on the Jap stuff.   
 

just like a bigger intercooler may actually be a backward step, we can’t just say thicker rad is better. Air flow through it is important.

I’m blown away by the number of people that continue to state I started a thread with incomplete information. Their interpretation of my question being more than what it simply was is on them not me. 
 

I can’t believe I have to keep going over this. Please everyone go back and read my opening post. Nowhere did I mention problems or ask for diagnosis of problems. All I wanted was to hear from those who have fitted larger radiators, specifically wider types ( which in turn means front mount intercooler)

 

that could have lead to discussions on plumbing, air flow of stacked coolers, pressure drop in IC etc

 

but instead people insist on making me jump through hoops to questions that were never asked. I never asked for them to guess my set up. Please tell me why it is crucial to know the complete workings of my vehicle when I’m asking about other peoples set ups NOT MINE. Believe it or not I wasn’t here to discuss mine but those that have done what I asked and learn from their set ups. 

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4 minutes ago, uninformed said:

Regarding the Jap stuff, I wasn’t commenting on their thickness, but rather their frontal area. AND the coolant capacity. You choose to see it as a contradiction but no where did I say thicker on the Jap stuff.  

To be fair you didn't actually say WHAT it was about them (thickness, area, fins per inch, chocolatey centre) hence why I asked a perfectly reasonable question which you've again chosen to be sniffy about.

 

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59 minutes ago, uninformed said:

The HS 2.8 Tgv has an on block oil cooler. It does not use the radiator. 
 

but yes , absolutely agree with oil temps playing a roll, and 20c is a decent increase.  

I was just looking at the oil cooler set-up:

Oil Filter and Cooler - 2.8 TGV - Find Land Rover parts at LR Workshop

So reading that correctly, the oil is cooled just after the oil filter using block coolant water? - if so imo that's probably less cooling effect than the 300tdi set-up.

Just from my experience of how I've seen the oil temp effect my coolant temps I'd definitely be having a deeper look at your oil temps and possible consider some supplementary oil cooling.

I know my coolant system is under a fair bit more strain since the VNT upgrade, as pretty much all my rubber hoses sprung leaks after the install (now replaced for silicone and decent clamps, after any decent drive the coolant hoses are all rock hard.

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