Improved Tdi cooling

[uninformed]

9 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

To be fair you didn't actually say WHAT it was about them (thickness, area, fins per inch, chocolatey centre) hence why I asked a perfectly reasonable question which you've again chosen to be sniffy about.

 

Too funny 

 

“You've asserted that bigger/thicker rads won't help much but then said the Japanese are better because they fit much bigger rads... which is it?”

 

this is a direct quote from you... if you can’t see what you’ve done there I can’t help you

[uninformed]

8 minutes ago, Maverik said:

I was just looking at the oil cooler set-up:

Oil Filter and Cooler - 2.8 TGV - Find Land Rover parts at LR Workshop

So reading that correctly, the oil is cooled just after the oil filter using block coolant water? - if so imo that's probably less cooling effect than the 300tdi set-up.

Just from my experience of how I've seen the oil temp effect my coolant temps I'd definitely be having a deeper look at your oil temps and possible consider some supplementary oil cooling.

I know my coolant system is under a fir bit more strain since the VNT upgrade, as pretty much all my rubber hoses sprung leaks after the install (now replaced for silicone and decent clamps, after any decent drive the coolant hoses are all rock hard.

I guess we could say it has less cooling effect but that would come back to the efficiency of the complete system. From what I’ve been told most vehicles have oil coolers like that and it was considered an improvement over the 300Tdi. 

[Maverik]

29 minutes ago, uninformed said:

I guess we could say it has less cooling effect but that would come back to the efficiency of the complete system. From what I’ve been told most vehicles have oil coolers like that and it was considered an improvement over the 300Tdi. 

Good point. 

I think its a bit of a suck it and see problem, if you're happy with all the other discussed aspects I'd say crack on with a bigger radiator, other than what manufactures state about there improved efficiency - I don't think I've seen any actually numbers of cooling performance i.e measuring the inlet/oulet at different loads etc of these upgraded radiators - as previously mentioned a member of the forum did publish some numbers about intercooler efficiency which where really interesting.

Basic physics would suggest that bigger overall size and more fins etc should give you more heat dispersion but this can of course be not quite true if the internal design of the rad is poor or badly manufactured and like you've mentioned you need to have adequate air flow through said rad.

[uninformed]

3 minutes ago, Maverik said:

Good point. 

I think its a bit of a suck it and see problem, if you're happy with all the other discussed aspects I'd say crack on with a bigger radiator, other than what manufactures state about there improved efficiency - I don't think I've seen any actually numbers of cooling performance i.e measuring the inlet/oulet at different loads etc of these upgraded radiators - as previously mentioned a member of the forum did publish some numbers about intercooler efficiency which where really interesting.

Basic physics would suggest that bigger overall size and more fins etc should give you more heat dispersion but this can of course be not quite true if the internal design of the rad is poor or badly manufactured and like you've mentioned you need to have adequate air flow through said rad.

Exactly, and why I was hoping to get some feedback on installation and in use of the wider set ups.

Always have to take the sales pitch with a grain of salt

 

A guy got back to me on FB, he has only done a front mount IC for his HS 2.8 Tgv (still stock type rad) but has recorded a inlet temp drop from average of 79 to 37 with a Max seen of 43c full boot. I asked about pressure drop but unfortunately he has not measured that yet, only to say he feels it revs more freely and has more get up and go , no noticeable lag. 
 

 

[Snagger]

Saying that Tdi head gaskets fail because of poor cooling is generally incorrect.  They typically fail because the aluminium head expands at a different rate to the iron block, shearing the gasket.  The later three layer steel gaskets cope far better with that than the original composite type.  The same would be true for a 2.8TGV

I don’t think that newer style of oil cooler is superior, just cheaper.  I think Maverick was probably closest to diagnosing the problem with his oil temperature remarks.  You’d probably be best to fit a ZF4HP oil cooler below the radiator for the engine oil, and perhaps use a wider rad without increasing thickness to maximise airflow.  If you have big spot lights on the bull bar, like the Lightforce spots so popular in Australia, move them away from the rad area.

As for dropping a gear to increase water pump speed, you say it’s impractical, but why?  It sounds like you’re driving a very heavy vehicle in tough conditions with a heavy right foot, refusing to lower speed to reduce stresses on the vehicle.  It’s a simple and effective solution that only requires a minute or two to drop the temperatures hugely and let you speed up again for a while and repeat.

It’s not reasonable to slag off the original cooling system for not being able to cope with a modified, seemingly heavy, vehicle with much more powerful engine in extreme conditions.  The system copes perfectly well with the stock engine and heavy loads in harsh climates if driven and maintained properly.  The system typically suffers more of a problem of over cooling.

[uninformed]

4 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Saying that Tdi head gaskets fail because of poor cooling is generally incorrect.  They typically fail because the aluminium head expands at a different rate to the iron block, shearing the gasket.  The later three layer steel gaskets cope far better with that than the original composite type.  The same would be true for a 2.8TGV

I don’t think that newer style of oil cooler is superior, just cheaper.  I think Maverick was probably closest to diagnosing the problem with his oil temperature remarks.  You’d probably be best to fit a ZF4HP oil cooler below the radiator for the engine oil, and perhaps use a wider rad without increasing thickness to maximise airflow.  If you have big spot lights on the bull bar, like the Lightforce spots so popular in Australia, move them away from the rad area.

As for dropping a gear to increase water pump speed, you say it’s impractical, but why?  It sounds like you’re driving a very heavy vehicle in tough conditions with a heavy right foot, refusing to lower speed to reduce stresses on the vehicle.  It’s a simple and effective solution that only requires a minute or two to drop the temperatures hugely and let you speed up again for a while and repeat.

It’s not reasonable to slag off the original cooling system for not being able to cope with a modified, seemingly heavy, vehicle with much more powerful engine in extreme conditions.  The system copes perfectly well with the stock engine and heavy loads in harsh climates if driven and maintained properly.  The system typically suffers more of a problem of over cooling.

So you missed question 1 like most of the rest lol

 

As for slagging off, you missed when I said the original engine stock, and other Australian 300 Tdi Defender owners having issue. 

I dont have spot lights at all on the vehicle. 32 inch tyres 2 inch spring lift, stock gearing. And given the tow rating of 3.5t, 1.9t is well within spec, especially when the tow rig has little to no weight on it. And since it is a cab chassis with alloy tray probably lighter than most 110s. 

How is it practical to drop gears when driving on flat highway 100km/h in traffic for example, if it was one particular situation that made it hot then for sure, but its not. Imagine driving a vehicle where you had to constantly drop gears to increase revs (outside the designed ratios ideal for speed from factory) just to cool the engine, then repeat evey x time.

But then if factory system is totally fine, why should I when you say "The system copes perfectly well with the stock engine and heavy loads in harsh climates if driven and maintained properly" 

But I can say if driving up inclines with load, I will always drop back to 4th for the gearbox and egts, plus they just bog down too much. 

 

I do like your idea of the oil cooler and wider radiator though. 

 

[Snagger]

The locals and expats here in the UAE have no temperature issues driving their Defenders in the desert in deep, soft sand, and those are wide range of 12Js, Tdis, TD5s and TDCIs, with the occasional V8.  Some have updated intercooler and tuning, but none had to alter their cooling systems.  The systems cope with 50oC here, the only exception being someone who followed the all to common internet advice of removing the viscous fan to improve performance or economy.

Are you using 50% antifreeze solution?

[Nonimouse]

I was just pondering coolant type.

OAT gives higher temps

Too strong a Glycol gives higher temps

[Snagger]

And not enough antifreeze increases internal corrosion and scale deposition, insulating the rad and the engine from the water.

[uninformed]

11 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

I was just pondering coolant type.

OAT gives higher temps

Too strong a Glycol gives higher temps

 

1 minute ago, Snagger said:

And not enough antifreeze increases internal corrosion and scale deposition, insulating the rad and the engine from the water.

This is what I was using in the 2.8 Tgv from day one. Flushed every 12-18 months 

 

https://www.tectaloy.com.au/corrosion-inhibitor-concentrates

 

I had never gone to OAT as it was never in my system and didn’t want to cross contaminate. Funny though my mates 1998 Tdi came with it I’m pretty sure , his build a few months after mine. 

[uninformed]

Oh and always factory viscous fan. It had electric on front of AC condenser but that all got pulled out with the AC system. 

[Nonimouse]

I've just had a brief chat with a couple of clever chaps out in Aus, who know Land Rovers. Turns out this must be a localised problem as generally there are no heating issues with 110/90/130's even with V8's; unless there is an issue with the vehicle.

I've left a message for a mate in Helensvale to see if he's had any issue with his previous 110's - he drives an Isuzu Dmax now

[uninformed]

3 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

I've just had a brief chat with a couple of clever chaps out in Aus, who know Land Rovers. Turns out this must be a localised problem as generally there are no heating issues with 110/90/130's even with V8's; unless there is an issue with the vehicle.

I've left a message for a mate in Helensvale to see if he's had any issue with his previous 110's - he drives an Isuzu Dmax now

generally the Td5, and Tdci have been fine. V8 different animals with full width Rad and no boost or IC  to deal with. Even the 200Tdi has been good and I pointed out the changes there. 300Tdi definitely wasn’t the pick of the bunch even though it has fan boys. The Td5 a much better engineered engine. Dmax is super reliable, I now have a BT50 3.2 for work only downside is it needs a lt230 

[uninformed]

It would be great to see some of those wider radiator installs though 🤣

[Ozzy50]

Makes me glad to be in Blighty where I can remove my viscous fan and run standard radiators with out any problems 🤣

[Nonimouse]

37 minutes ago, uninformed said:

It would be great to see some of those wider radiator installs though 🤣

Wider isn't necessarily the way. Deeper is. We had a lot of problems with 105 series cruisers and higher operating temps. Huge wide rad, but only two rows deep. That was the 4.2NAD though

The 200 has a huge capacity water jacket - way over the top. The 300 doesn't. TD5 is very unhappy to run hot, so has a big capacity rad

[Jon W]

Seems strange the tgv doesnt use the oil cooler as was most applications would of had the 300 tdi radiator which had it incorporated anyway. Is it just blocked off on your rad? could it be connected up to see if there is any difference?

Waiting to get shot down in flames here, but have you checked the viscous fan is working properly and locking up when hot? as they will shift a lot of air when they need to. You mention parts changed but haven't mentioned this I don't think?

TGV do get hot so additional coolant capacity whether that is from thicker core (land rovers normal way of improving cooling well it was in series land rovers anyway) or a larger surface area, is going to help. 

I have a double core Intercooler and a standard size radiator (built with a heavy duty core so it can be washed out easily) on my 200tdi, i chose this as mine is a discovery conversion so has an electric fan rather than viscous. 

Or go with a V8 radiator or NAD or old turbo diesel radiator and put the intercooler pipes through the wing and have a front mount intercooler. 

 

 

 

[Daan]

The TGV has 135 hp vs 111hp for a 2.5 TDI, that is +22% in power. As the engine produces as much energy in heat as it does in making the wheels turn, you need +22% in cooling as well.

I am personally not a fan of front mounted radiators, especially when used in mud, as you need overcapacity of the cooling system when it starts clogging up. The viscous fan can also be faulty, so check that and the cowling is important too.

[uninformed]

Yep viscous fan was checked, it was also brand new with engine but still checked. 
 

I try and avoid mud and we certainly have less of it here being dryer than UK . I liken it to grinding paste, had my fun in it when younger but avoid it now if possible. 
 

And yes I do agree front mount IC have their drawbacks also.

 

Honestly I wish I hadn’t had these problems, I don’t like to spend money fixing things. 
 

The 300Tdi was well maintained, same with the 2.8 Tgv.  
 

At least once back on the road it won’t be towing anymore 

[uninformed]

10 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Wider isn't necessarily the way. Deeper is. We had a lot of problems with 105 series cruisers and higher operating temps. Huge wide rad, but only two rows deep. That was the 4.2NAD though

The 200 has a huge capacity water jacket - way over the top. The 300 doesn't. TD5 is very unhappy to run hot, so has a big capacity rad

I do have a deeper core (Redback brand I think 🤔) my only concern with deeper is the potential lack of air flow through it (that is brand/design dependant of course).

 

if they are noticeably thin to begin with then yes it could be the simplest solution, not to mention the likes of 105s and Series LR are already at pretty much full width from factory so no room to grow sideways. 

 

The Tdi set up is the only one I know of on modern vehicles with cooling stacked side by side. 

 

I never had problems with my RRC 3,5 or my SIII swb truck cab petrol and that little truck got worked hard. 
 

someone mentioned no mechanical sympathy or such, the engine was the only thing I had issues with ever. I got over 300k out of the R380 and 200k+ was towing my dual axle trailer. That box was only pulled because the syncros got sticky. I got 200k out of the factory fitted clutch. No other mechanical problems other than one hub seal and that was stub seal surface. All axles oil fed converted etc

[uninformed]

8 hours ago, Jon W said:

Seems strange the tgv doesnt use the oil cooler as was most applications would of had the 300 tdi radiator which had it incorporated anyway. Is it just blocked off on your rad? could it be connected up to see if there is any difference?

Waiting to get shot down in flames here, but have you checked the viscous fan is working properly and locking up when hot? as they will shift a lot of air when they need to. You mention parts changed but haven't mentioned this I don't think?

TGV do get hot so additional coolant capacity whether that is from thicker core (land rovers normal way of improving cooling well it was in series land rovers anyway) or a larger surface area, is going to help. 

I have a double core Intercooler and a standard size radiator (built with a heavy duty core so it can be washed out easily) on my 200tdi, i chose this as mine is a discovery conversion so has an electric fan rather than viscous. 

Or go with a V8 radiator or NAD or old turbo diesel radiator and put the intercooler pipes through the wing and have a front mount intercooler. 

 

 

 

When you say heavy duty core so it can be washed out easier, you are talking about internal cleaning yes?

I actually don’t know the specs on my radiator core other than HD and deeper/thicker , with the bleed hole reduced in dia (not blocked off completely)

It is Redback brand ... how Australian lol

[Nonimouse]

7 hours ago, uninformed said:

 

 

The Tdi set up is the only one I know of on modern vehicles with cooling stacked side by side. 

 

 

That's because it works

Meant to ask, are you running an alloy core/plastic tank rad or a Brass and copper rad?

[uninformed]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

That's because it works

Meant to ask, are you running an alloy core/plastic tank rad or a Brass and copper rad?

I’m not sure of your context of “that’s because it works “?

 

 Brass and copper. I don’t like alloy for fatigue cracking. 
 

forgot to add they are way more susceptible to stray current corrosion also.

Edited January 27, 2021 by uninformed

[Jon W]

The core is a stronger core, more like you would get out of industrial machines, basically the fins won't fold flat as soon as you touch them like a normal radiator does. So if it gets packed with mud/dirt it can be washed easily/hosed out. But I am unsure if this has reduced its cooling efficiency at all. 

Stacking rads in theory would cause a problem but if designed well and as long as the fan is pulling air through them. Just l, it should cause any issue just look at the amount of radiators in the front of a tractor now days. and the main engine radiator is the last one to receive air  

 

[Jon W]

Out of interest why is the bleed hole a reduced diameter? What does this help with? When I did my V8 conversion in my series  I ran without this for a while until the radiator was modified, think it ran cooler once fitted.