K110

[daveturnbull]

Yes, forged, my bad.

I've had lots of conversations about radius arm strength from my comp safari involvement. The general consensus is the stock arms may be heavy, but are the strongest by a country mile. All of the aftermarket welded ones eventually fail, normally just by cracking and peeling apart along the welds. I have seen an 's' shaped stock arm, but that was after a fairly hefty tree strike, so no big surprise as something had to give.

Disco 2 bushes with cutouts / drill holes positioned top and bottom would be the best option for strength and rotational flex.

[landroversforever]

Nice work there. As Doug rightly pointed out, interesting to see another come out the wood-work regarding widening the axle in a similar fashion. How much do you reckon your extra bits weigh? I'm going Ali with mine and bolting right though having done the calcs the ali is more than up to the job and was lighter than going for a steel version. 

[uninformed]

4 hours ago, daveturnbull said:

Yes, forged, my bad.

I've had lots of conversations about radius arm strength from my comp safari involvement. The general consensus is the stock arms may be heavy, but are the strongest by a country mile. All of the aftermarket welded ones eventually fail, normally just by cracking and peeling apart along the welds. I have seen an 's' shaped stock arm, but that was after a fairly hefty tree strike, so no big surprise as something had to give.

Disco 2 bushes with cutouts / drill holes positioned top and bottom would be the best option for strength and rotational flex.

Yes I’ve seen photos of factory RRC radius arms with nearly 180 degree bend sideways in them after a 100km/h head on crash. Engine was shot out of chassis and crank punched out of block. 
 

I wasn’t looking that hard at D2 stuff when I designed these and tbh didn’t want to change the axle bracketry and have to re true the housing. We have some good options for bushes with the Patrol stuff. They are definitely better than Defender bushes. 
 

welding mine was a choice driven by unsprung mass. I don’t compete so won’t be that hard on them. I doubt mine would be as strong as factory in up/down direction but hopefully they will be as strong in side bending even with my added length. I would be a little concerned about extending the factory arm 300mm off the pin , also taking into account the slender ratio the arm would have.

[uninformed]

3 hours ago, landroversforever said:

Nice work there. As Doug rightly pointed out, interesting to see another come out the wood-work regarding widening the axle in a similar fashion. How much do you reckon your extra bits weigh? I'm going Ali with mine and bolting right though having done the calcs the ali is more than up to the job and was lighter than going for a steel version. 

A mate of mine widened LR housings over 30 years ago like this. Very rarely do we have new ideas, just old ones revisited 😄

No idea on weight but they weren’t too bad. They are machined out of 4140. Probably could have been k1045 or such but I wanted some extra safety margin. Obviously it depends on the grade of Aluminium, but is there any concern of fatigue failure ?

I would also look at the strength of the bolted joint. I originally had no intention of welding them as well as bolting, and had some evidence that they may be strong enough without the weld. But a friend pointed out he knew of the a few failures of the original 3/8 UNF 6 bolt joint on RRC. Even though these are M10 7 bolt, the strength increase at best is maybe 10-15%. + 75mm added width is an increase of over 30% on joint load. 

I forgot to add, in the end of my housing, inside the axle tube, I installed hollow bar 10mm wall thickness. This was done a few years earlier with a mate that helped my laminate the housing. The housing was put in a lathe and machine out the over roll from friction weld of axle flange. Hollow bar is a neat (not press though) fit and is continuous fillet weld in the end. It’s a bit over 200mm long and has plug welds on the other end. 

Unsprung mass is definitely something I like to keep down, but am limited by skill and budget.

 

If I do it again I would custom fabricate the housing so no spacers needed and use D2 radius arm bushes. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by uninformed

[geoffbeaumont]

On 1/28/2021 at 3:05 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

And people here complain about our rules on mods

Very tidy work.

On the face of it, without knowing any more about the Aus rules, that sounds like a very sensible approach which could allow mods as long as they're properly engineered and executed, but catch shoddy work before it gets out on the road. Obviously, the reality may be very different!

[uninformed]

7 hours ago, geoffbeaumont said:

On the face of it, without knowing any more about the Aus rules, that sounds like a very sensible approach which could allow mods as long as they're properly engineered and executed, but catch shoddy work before it gets out on the road. Obviously, the reality may be very different!

In short, there are codes for different parts of the vehicles and what you can and can not do. So basic yes no to the idea of a mod, then if yes, the design and implementation of it. As with life, it comes down to the individual certifying engineer, their interpretations of the rules, and how they want you to go about it. I do know that there are Cert engineers out there that don't go to the lengths of weld tests etc. 

[uninformed]

A couple boring pics, but just to illustrate that one change makes many, and when you are doing everything by hand, it takes longer again lol. Im very lucky to have a mate with a small lathe that lets me use it and gives me guidance on it. No DRO so the true definition of manual machining 😆

Tapping the new drag link (I still have to tap the track rod and then cut/slit both) and the spacers. The spacers moved too much in the vice so I clamped the housing vertically to the side of my bench and bolted the spacer to it. You may notice the large chamfer on the corner of rebate for swivel ball spigot. This is to use a O ring around the swivel spigot and hopefully avoid a gasket. Only time will tell on that one. 

 

 

[uninformed]

And one of a crude mock up of rear tub. Cab is getting extended approximately 200mm, rear overhang shortened 150-200mm. Im moving the rear bulkhead back and making longer doors, floors, roof etc. Doors will be Series style. The tub is a SIIA 109, Truck Cab 110s do not exist in Australia and Hardtop 110s are very rare. I have pulled most of the tub apart. Obviously I'll have to re profile the wheel arches (I was lucky a local guy had his eyebrows/flares off his 110 Perenti, So I took an outline on some plywood.)

Rear fuel tank capacity will be reduced of course, maybe I can supplement it with a custom sill tank. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by uninformed

[Blanco]

Liking the look of that and thinking about extending my truck cab as well, be interesting to see it develop.

[landroversforever]

On 1/29/2021 at 1:16 AM, uninformed said:

A mate of mine widened LR housings over 30 years ago like this. Very rarely do we have new ideas, just old ones revisited 😄

No idea on weight but they weren’t too bad. They are machined out of 4140. Probably could have been k1045 or such but I wanted some extra safety margin. Obviously it depends on the grade of Aluminium, but is there any concern of fatigue failure ?

I would also look at the strength of the bolted joint. I originally had no intention of welding them as well as bolting, and had some evidence that they may be strong enough without the weld. But a friend pointed out he knew of the a few failures of the original 3/8 UNF 6 bolt joint on RRC. Even though these are M10 7 bolt, the strength increase at best is maybe 10-15%. + 75mm added width is an increase of over 30% on joint load. 

If I do it again I would custom fabricate the housing so no spacers needed and use D2 radius arm bushes. 

Ha yeah! Mine are something like 1200g each I think for essentially a solid lump with a through hole for the shaft and the 7 stud holes.

I'll have to dig out the calcs I did with a colleague but from memory the proof tensile load hanging off a single side would be equivalent to about 30something tons. The shear is a bit less, around the 20T Tons for a single corner. But that's only the bolts. The bolts don't see a shear load until you've overcome the surface friction of the joint. The joint with ali on mild would need about 16T of force to overcome the surface friction. That's also ignoring the shear strength of the boss as well, that's about 25-30T from memory. Then assuming the overall size of the spacer.... you'd need something close to 150T to shear it. The calcs all end up in Newtons, but I converted to metric tons to be able to more easily picture what kind of force it is. 

I've not yet looked into the fatigue side of things, but its on the to-do list! Work business kicked off for both of us before we could get round to thinking about fatigue life. 

21 hours ago, uninformed said:

No DRO so the true definition of manual machining 😆

Tapping the new drag link (I still have to tap the track rod and then cut/slit both) and the spacers. The spacers moved too much in the vice so I clamped the housing vertically to the side of my bench and bolted the spacer to it. You may notice the large chamfer on the corner of rebate for swivel ball spigot. This is to use a O ring around the swivel spigot and hopefully avoid a gasket. Only time will tell on that one. 

No DRO!  Next you'll be saying you're going to fit a pair of shafts to the front for a horse to pull you along  

I was thinking about the sealing of mine the other say. I was thinking O-ring in that recess, or even a flat type seal on the bottom face of the recess. (need to measure the clearance and see if that would work).

[uninformed]

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

Ha yeah! Mine are something like 1200g each I think for essentially a solid lump with a through hole for the shaft and the 7 stud holes.

I'll have to dig out the calcs I did with a colleague but from memory the proof tensile load hanging off a single side would be equivalent to about 30something tons. The shear is a bit less, around the 20T Tons for a single corner. But that's only the bolts. The bolts don't see a shear load until you've overcome the surface friction of the joint. The joint with ali on mild would need about 16T of force to overcome the surface friction. That's also ignoring the shear strength of the boss as well, that's about 25-30T from memory. Then assuming the overall size of the spacer.... you'd need something close to 150T to shear it. The calcs all end up in Newtons, but I converted to metric tons to be able to more easily picture what kind of force it is. 

 

The problem that was pointed out to me was that it is not pure shear on the joint, its a bending moment (hinge joint is how I visualise it being a carpenter). So that changes the dynamics of potential failure as all 7 bolts are not in tension or shear. This being the case, the spigot on the spacer (going into rebate in axle housing flange) is not doing much.  But at the end of the day, run what you are comfortable with. Im definitely envious of your lesser weight.

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

No DRO!  Next you'll be saying you're going to fit a pair of shafts to the front for a horse to pull you along  

A horse probably more agreeable than my Tdi's have been 😅 Unfortunaltly the budget doesn't stretch to a M57 or LS(or later) ....so stick with the Tdi 😬

 

1 hour ago, landroversforever said:

I was thinking about the sealing of mine the other say. I was thinking O-ring in that recess, or even a flat type seal on the bottom face of the recess. (need to measure the clearance and see if that would work).

At axle housing end, due to welding, a O ring was unable to be used. I should only need sealant on the studs (as long as welds dont leak). On the swivel ball end, given the size of the swivel spigot, chamfer seemed the way to go and easiest to machine. hopefully it works.

Which ever way you go, if you can avoid any gasket material at axle housing joint, the better structurally. 

[uninformed]

13 hours ago, Blanco said:

Liking the look of that and thinking about extending my truck cab as well, be interesting to see it develop.

Thanks. I have seen a few 110s on Instagram with extended cabs and short over hang (90 style). Unfortunately they have the fuel tank in the tub and that is just impractical for my needs, so my rear overhang will be more than 90 less than 110.

I am yet to see a extended cab with longer doors. Most I see do not even move the rear bulkhead and seat base. To me this is not really achieving much. I wanted more legroom, secondly, when driving my shoulder is against the window frame, making it roll forward a bit (not good for shoulders that are already bad) and unless its raining the window is always down so arm can have room. Thirdly my temple is directly inline with the seatbelt bolt at B pillar. Doing what most do would also create a massive blind spot in vision. So longer doors it is. I dont intend on moving  my seat back 200mm but wanted the door frame further back than my location. I may have to put a slight bend in the gear lever arm, but most other ergonomics should be ok. 

[Ozzy50]

90 tank under the drivers seat , pre TD5 I think ? That’s what I did when I bobbed MUD 

[uninformed]

6 hours ago, Ozzy50 said:

90 tank under the drivers seat , pre TD5 I think ? That’s what I did when I bobbed MUD 

I had thought about that but kind of ruled it out due to a few reasons. First, I still have to check with the engineer If sill tanks are legal (being outboard the chassis structure) , secondly given the changes to suspension and body mounts, and links it may not fit without a lot of work. Thirdly, pre Td5 90s (and even then Td5 90s were only a couple years and very rare) were never sold in Australia so I would have to import a tank. 

If I can have a sill tank I’ll probably make it my secondary, fabricate it out of Aluminium and have its cross section triangle shape so it slopes up from chassis rail to sill.

Hows does yours go for bottoming out given longer wheelbase? 

[Ozzy50]

It hasn’t moved for 10 years so no problems at all , ha ha !! Seriously though I never had any problems with it , they sit well above the lower chassis line , I never got round to fabricating a tank guard for it but it would be prudent to do so . As you say with the new front suspension mounts a standard tank wouldn’t fit , hadn’t thought of that ! I’m un-bobbing MUD so the tank will return to the rear of the chassis covered by an almighty tank guard that I got from somewhere that I can’t remember 🙄, I no longer do the sort of off roading that makes the 110 rear overhang a problem and the tank guard and body protection I have planned will cover me if I do decide to be silly. I reckon there’s enough room behind the cab above/between the chassis rails for the tank although  you are extending the cab so again it might not fit ? 
 

You certainly like to make life hard for yourself don’t you !!!

[uninformed]

3 hours ago, Ozzy50 said:

...... I reckon there’s enough room behind the cab above/between the chassis rails for the tank although  you are extending the cab so again it might not fit ? 
 

You certainly like to make life hard for yourself don’t you !!!

Unfortunately the rear bulkhead is literally just in front of the new A frame cross member.

No one ever accused me of taking the easy road 😂😂

[Ozzy50]

Ah of course , the a frame crossmember has moved forward , DOH ! Yeah you are certainly making packaging a problem for yourself 🤣

[Ozzy50]

How much are you taking off the rear overhang AND is it really necessary?

[uninformed]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:11 PM, Ozzy50 said:

How much are you taking off the rear overhang AND is it really necessary?

150-200mm. I would like to shorten it more, but everything is a compromise. As for necessary, nothing is, but thats not the point is it 😉... and the packaging, well ill also need to find space for hydraulic oil reservior, solenoid control valve, pressure relief, inline filter among some other goodies as well.. 😄

[uninformed]

I got a few little things done of late. I managed to get up to Maxidrive and order my new axle shafts for front housing. Ill also be getting them to custom make some drive flanges. I finished the drag link and track rod tapping and slitting. The small groove indicates the left hand thread. They will be electro plated.

I also picked up a Series drop down tail gate (my tub didnt come with one). And Ive started the drawings for my rear cross member. I still have to sort our trailer chain lugs, recovery points and jack hole locations. Ill get the main C section laser cut and folded for this. Most things I cut by hand but this is one Ill farm out. I should probably buy the new pintle to make sure bolt centres are the same as my old flogged out one. shipping is going to suck.

 

[Blanco]

35 minutes ago, uninformed said:

I managed to get up to Maxidrive

... I thought Maxidrive was long dead??? I obviously missed something there.......

[uninformed]

26 minutes ago, Blanco said:

... I thought Maxidrive was long dead??? I obviously missed something there.......

Some of their products are still made by M R Automotive in Redcliffe, Queensland. Warren, one of the owners is a long time friend and customer of the original MaxiDrive. They make axles, drive flanges, track rods, drag links , A frame ball joints , LT230 low range gears and some other bits. The diff locks are not being made but I already had those parts. 

[landroversforever]

On 2/6/2021 at 10:58 AM, uninformed said:

Not sure a ply cross member will take a recovery .

Coming together nicely. I've always liked the look of a 110 with a 90 rear overhang. Did you consider moving the axle backwards instead? Or is a wheelbase change not allowed?

[uninformed]

12 hours ago, landroversforever said:

Not sure a ply cross member will take a recovery .

Coming together nicely. I've always liked the look of a 110 with a 90 rear overhang. Did you consider moving the axle backwards instead? Or is a wheelbase change not allowed?

Don’t worry, I’ll be using exterior wood glue...

 

I like the 110 wheelbase. Wheelbase/chassis extensions are common here with Toyota 79/200 series. Usually 300mm. I like the size of the 110. I know the 90 is seen as the off roader and the 110 as more a worker, but to me the 90 is too short, and not just for space. LR should have pushed it to 100” in the 2000’s

 

[FridgeFreezer]

TBH I think the wheelbase debate is over-done, sure it's a big deal if you're doing trials with insanely tight turns (hence the number of 80" triallers with fiddle brakes) but for more general stuff I honestly don't think I've ever seen a real difference at play days etc. between 90/100/110 and I know which I'd rather drive up or down a steep incline.