Newbie looking for a Defender 90

[jediwhite]

Good day all

I'm a virgin Landy wannabeee owner (but had an L322 in the past and also 'shhh' a couple of Q7's) and looking for some advise

I'm looking for something pre-1991 to make it easier to import into Ireland and trying to decide what to go for

Not too worried about quality paint or straight panels but have just finished a restoration on a 1979 triumph dolly and I've had enough of rust!!!

Should i pay more for accessories or is it better to go standard and modify myself.

200 or 300tdi, whats the better engine? 

I fancy rear seats and windows but can you get the rear body if i buy a soft top or single cab?

Your help and advise will be much appreciated and a prospective new landy owner is looking forward to joining the 'gang' !!

 

[Retroanaconda]

Welcome

I’m afraid I can only answer your question with more questions to begin with.

It may help to give us some idea of what you want to use it for? Is it a plaything to throw round the local quarry every other weekend? Second car for taking dogs for a walk? Daily driver? Long distance tourer?

Do you have a budget in mind?

The 200Tdi came in in 1990, with the 300Tdi in 1994. Earlier vehicles with either engine will have been retrofitted, but genuine Tdis do carry a premium. Likewise genuine station wagons (rear seats and windows) carry a premium over converted hard-tops. The rear bodies and soft tops etc. can be swapped fairly easily. It’s better in my opinion to start with a blank canvas rather than inherit someone else’s modifications.

Lots of advice out there about buying Land Rovers but it all generally boils down to three things: condition, condition and condition! A pre-1991 vehicle will probably be quite rusty, or will have had a lot of money spent on it to resolve rust and be consequently expensive. The main areas to focus on are the chassis and front bulkhead, and the doors. Mileage is relatively unimportant compared to other vehicles.

You'll find as many opinions on 200Tdi vs 300Tdi as there are people to offer them. Personally I wouldn’t let the engine be the deciding factor as they’re both very good and the other aspects are likely to be more important in your decision.

The holy grail is an original vehicle that’s not been messed about with and that has been well looked after. These command a high price nowadays, especially as more become eligible for US export.

[ThreePointFive]

What's said above covers it but with regards to modifications, particularly things that make it either a newer-looking car or "extreme off road to the max", try to familiarise yourself with standard before deciding you like it.

The market is flooded with tarted up cars that have no attention paid to their mechanicals or functionality. Some mods can genuinely enhance the car, such as an expensive set of seats that make it more comfortable on a long drive, but some mods (light bars, bumpers, gear knobs..) are bought off ebay for £15 but somehow used to talk up the price. Same with cosmetics, like a set of chequer plate that's hiding the need for new doors in a year's time.

'Standard' doesnt give much room to hide things, you can instantly see what is right or wrong with the car and if you're happy to proceed. Modified might mean welding or other work that you have no way to assess the competence of - or why it was done. Personally - and I will be unpopular for this - I would walk away from anything that has or did have a lift kit. There are a number out there and all vary in quality and engineering. These cars are built around a very specific ride height, wheel sizes and UJ angles, changing that puts far more mechnical components under stress than the ones that have been changed and also invites the car to be driven that extra 10% where further damage is likely.

But more than anything else, just don't let the fact it is modified inflate the price. I'd rather start with something plain and make it my own (saving money where I don't want to modify) than have to pay more and be stuck with someone else's idea of good.

 

[jeremy996]

I have a 200Tdi 110 CSW and a LR90 2.5NA van with windows. After the faff getting the 200Tdi engine fully refurbed, I'd suggest a 300Tdi as the engine bits are easier to come by. 

Try not to pay for other peoples accessories - their taste will be different from yours and a significant proportion of it is junk, (or at least, not very useful); unless there's no premium price, try to buy standard.

This is going to sound odd from a member of a LR group, but defenders for sale seem overpriced to me; hopefully they'll get cheaper in midsummer. Would a Disco be a better bet for the use you'll put it to?

Most soft trim and mechanicals can be sorted without spending the earth; be wary about bodges to bulkheads and chassis, there is a lot of tarted-up tat about. Fresh paint and underseal can hide a multitude of sins 

Check the identity of the vehicle and the seller carefully; lots of bent parts and vehicles about.

[jediwhite]

Great response and many thanks so far

Use will be mainly schlepping around the local area but I've got fields to play on and plenty of stony tracks over the mountains when bored of tarmac

Defender is on my radar (not so keen on the disco) as I don't want to mod a 'classic' but can't help myself when I see shiny bits in magazines and other peoples upgrades.

I fancy a lift kit and bigger wheels but happy to do the work myself and get the angles correct etc hence why I'm on here! to learn from the guys who've done it before

Pre 91 as the Irish charge huge import duty and as noted, good chassis and bulkhead

Thanks again for advice and I'll keep looking. I'm not in a rush and its hard to travel at the moment

 

[jediwhite]

Does anyone know anything about the 1987 with M57 conversion for sale on the 'bay', looks very nice

[FridgeFreezer]

Just to 2nd what others have said - modifications are almost always not as nicely done as you might like, and engine swaps often hide things that are less than ideal or will cause a maintenance headache with trying to find the right parts.

If you spot a truck on eBay etc. then just post the link here for us to pore over

[jediwhite]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-90-BMW-3-0-M57-conversion-chassis-restored/393217463387?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l9372

[jeremy996]

Looks interesting, but what is the chequer-plate covering?

It's a bitsa with some quite choice bits, but it's a long way from standard and in a configuration never sold by Land Rover. If its breaks, you will be your own development engineer.

The condition of the bulkhead needs to be checked carefully. Where would you get another clutch and slave from? 

[ThreePointFive]

Seems weird to spend so much time and effort on a car only to move it on because the result is exactly what it was always going to be. I cannot see how they're not taking a huge hit on the money spent.

Otherwise looks nicely done, I just wonder if it's a good car to start with when (as Jeremy says) everything will be modified in some way.

[FridgeFreezer]

Personally I'd be tempted to look at that one in the flesh - if it's as the ad says it could be a decent motor but equally it could be hiding a lot of surprises. Chequerplate riveted along the bottom of the doors suggests it probably needs new doors at least. All those shiny new parts could have come out of a Britpart box too...

As Jeremy says - with an engine swap you're going to have an adventure when trying to source parts. Up to you if you're up for that challenge.

[jediwhite]

Seems like the general opinion is;

• Original is best
• Chassis doors and bulkhead are prime rust spots
• go and view, checker plate can hide a lot and mods are often hiding problems (or causing them)
• 200tdi and 300 tdi are good but 300 easier to get parts

There seem to be a few companies selling tarted up ones around the 10 grand mark but some of the pictures show the chassis oversprayed with stone chip  and some dodgy looking resprays too, so I'm assuming probably good to give a miss to those too

I think I'm going to up my budget and find one with a refurbed or good chassis and then do the mods myself after reading all the posts on the forum, or maybe find one from someone reputable on here!! (hint hint!!)

[RedLineMike]

17 hours ago, jediwhite said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-90-BMW-3-0-M57-conversion-chassis-restored/393217463387?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l9372

 7/8k id say is about the right kinda price point for that, 12k is being a bit hopeful,

 

14 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Looks interesting, but what is the chequer-plate covering?

It's a bitsa with some quite choice bits, but it's a long way from standard and in a configuration never sold by Land Rover. If its breaks, you will be your own development engineer.

The condition of the bulkhead needs to be checked carefully. Where would you get another clutch and slave from? 

theres enough people doing m57 swaps that i wouldnt let that put me off, ok the p38 bellhousing adaption is far from perfect but it is cheaper than using an adapter plate, however the main issue with the p38 bellhousing adaption is that you need to use an uprated clutch otherwise it slips, not sure how the slave cylinder can be that custom

[Snagger]

As the others said, definitely find the most original/standard vehicle you can.  Some mods are done well, but from what I’ve seen at various shows, those are the minority - most are bodged and will leave you with reliability and maintenance headaches, if not safety problems too.

Accessories are a very personal thing, and quality of the components and their installation as varied as the choices.  The reality is that most need stripping off and starting again.

Chequer plate (as someone who has some), is oft used to hide damage that would cost a lot to repair.  Wing tops, external sills, every rear quarters or bonneted are fine - it’s probably hiding dents, but can be for protection (I was sick of paint damage on the rear quarters in the work car parks, and the plate seemed a practical solution), but anything on doors, between the rear doors and rear wheels on 110 station wagons, and anything on the chassis is hiding significant  terminal corrosion of that area.  If it’s on doors or those side panels, they need replacement.  If it’s anywhere on the chassis, expect major repairs or outright replacement within 24 months.

Refurbished vehicles are hit and miss, and you need to inspect and drive the vehicle with someone who knows what they’re looking at.  There is more con than re in the recon business, and unless buying from one of the few reputable businesses, then be very wary indeed.  Defenders even more so, given how many are stolen and how easy it is to hide their original identity.

That eBay example is interesting.  It looks like the chassis has been sorted, but you can’t tell much from a photo or a comment about a Lr specialist having welded it up.  It sounds like the bulkhead needs a lot of work, and I suspect the doors are like a lace doily.  Removing the plate from the tub and wings after fitting new doors will need the rivet holes tig welding and repainting, so is another headache.  Late spec axles had 24 splines; early axles had 10 splines inboard and 23 outboard on the front, so it sounds a bit of a confused comment, much like his clutch slave.  Custom parts are something you really don’t want to get into, unless it’s sturdy brackets that won’t need replacing at any time, so those mounts and clutch components are a concern.  Wheel spacers are generally considered “a bad thing”, and it seems that between those and a snorkel that isn’t connected, a fair few things on the vehicle were about bling and not condition or drive quality.  I’m not sure about the Discovery rear springs, either - it may be a photo issue, but the first photo looks to me like it sits laid low, and I was under the impression that Discovery and TTC springs are shorter than Defender, which would explain the tail being low, if it really is.

It could well be worth a close look, but there are some red flags that need a close check in the flesh before any thoughts of offers or deposits creep into mind.  He has sunk a fair bit of effort and money into it, which makes me wonder why he’s moving it on so soon - fitting rear seats is a bit costly, but not as much as he has already done.  It may be because of financial difficulty, but his co meets suggest he’s just bored of it, and that makes me question the quality of the work even more.   Then again, I am a cynic.

[FridgeFreezer]

Honestly I'd rather buy a tatty one for low money and spend the cash restoring it so I know it's solid than rely on other people's work, but that's just me. Very hard to find an old Defender that's not been pratted about with or had the odd bodge job at some point - but modifications are almost never adding value over a straight original truck.

[jediwhite]

Can anyone recommend someone selling restored ones or any for sale that they know of

[ThreePointFive]

There's usually a good number on Auto Trader, just look for 'galvanised chassis' in any advert anywhere and it's a good indication.

[jediwhite]

Anyone have any thoughts or experiences on

Walton Motors in Cranleigh

Pennine Motors in Wakefield or

T & T Motors in East Ardsley

All have a number of reasonable looking ones but some seem to be sold when you go one on their websites

[jediwhite]

What do you think of this one

I'm fairly sure I'm going to get told to run a mile but I've always loved the sound of a V8

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1960-LAND-ROVER-SERIES-V8-HYBRID-DEFENDER-4x4-TAX-EXEMPT-MOT-EXEMPT-LOW-MILEAGE/224378368981?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l9372

[hurbie]

your looking for a 200/300tdi defender , and want us to have a opinion on a v8 serie's ....(or wat's left of it )

[jediwhite]

I'm not looking specifically for a 200/300 tdi, I just asked which you thought was better

Do I need to start another thread ?

[hurbie]

27 minutes ago, jediwhite said:

Do I need to start another thread ?

i don't think you have to , as far as the vehicle goes , it would not be my first choice , since it's a converted serie's , who knows wat parts are used (and it's up to you to find them if you have to do some maintenance ....)

 

(don't know the rules in ireland , but in the Netherlands this is no longer a classic vehicle (you can only change 1 part of either chassis-engine-body ).

Edited April 5, 2021 by hurbie

[jediwhite]

Good points, I'll have to check with registration department but i think they are fairly easy going.

At least for registration it need to be pre 91 for tax free import anyway

[FridgeFreezer]

@Shackleton might know about the registration rules but that "series" hybrid could be trouble as it's a coiler chassis with a Series body and god knows what engine/gearbox/axle combo, depends how legit the re-registration is. Also depends on the quality of the work.

[jediwhite]

I think I'm going to leave that (I was only tempted by the thought of a set of open pipes and the noise !!)

I've decided to wait until I can get to view them

Cheers