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I think that is probably an understatement in terms of sales lost.

I look at a D3, D4 or D5 and just see a vehicle I cannot fix without a big 2 post lift. The new Defender is just the same; these are not vehicles built for an extended working life but to last to the end of a PCP. I don't buy disposable vehicles, so if it won't last 20-30 years, I don't want it. The JLR dealers don't help; LR independents thrive as the dealers are often hopeless at fault repairs and are always pricey.

I appreciate that I am not the target customer, but I know I am not the only one dissuaded by the excessive complexity and cost of modern vehicles. A Dacia is much more attractive as a working tool as it is basic to the point of austerity and the price point is very attractive, with OK to good build quality.

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33 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

I think that is probably an understatement in terms of sales lost.

I look at a D3, D4 or D5 and just see a vehicle I cannot fix without a big 2 post lift. The new Defender is just the same; these are not vehicles built for an extended working life but to last to the end of a PCP. I don't buy disposable vehicles, so if it won't last 20-30 years, I don't want it. The JLR dealers don't help; LR independents thrive as the dealers are often hopeless at fault repairs and are always pricey.

I appreciate that I am not the target customer, but I know I am not the only one dissuaded by the excessive complexity and cost of modern vehicles. A Dacia is much more attractive as a working tool as it is basic to the point of austerity and the price point is very attractive, with OK to good build quality.

I think the issue here has a lot to do with perception. People believe that LR are the most unreliable make of vehicle but in reality Audi and BMW are at the bottom of the list with Land Rover - all 3 of those produce high end complex vehicles that have more things on them to go wrong which takes us to your second point

Is a D3/D4 really that bad to fix or is it just different skills compared to a 200tdi defender? Again I think it is a perception thing as most jobs could be done on a D3/D4 without a 2 post ramp and again the jobs are not that hard to do really. I did some EGRs and a wheel bearing on a D3 at the weekend (Every modern diesel has an egr or two!) and yes the access was fiddly to get at a couple of bolts but I am sure the majority of people on here could easily do it. The front wheel bearing was a doddle, took me less than an hour start to finish to do it including getting tools out and putting them away - way quicker and easier than messing about with a Defender front bearing

 

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Perception is reality. Reputation starts at the dealership, vehicle experience and how swiftly issues are sorted under warranty.

If problems arise with a vehicle still under warranty are handled quickly, efficiently,  courteously, with the least inconvenience to the customer then the overall impression given is that the parent company and its franchised dealers cares for its customers. Sadly my experience of buying new JLR products has meant getting things fixed under warranty has meant dealing with a system with an attitude that almost begrudge repairing their products. Customers first have to convince warranty managers that there is an issue and then the manager has to convince JLR. Hassle creates frustration and ill feeling in the customer which is further aggravated when repairs are not effective long term.

Most individuals who buy new don't want to fix their own vehicles.

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I think the issue isn't necessarily the "reliability", but the fear of cost in the event of an issue and the hassle involved.  LR and Jaguar are now premium brands, as are BMW, Audi & Mercedes as mentioned earlier... so the expectation is if an issue occurs then the bill could be huge.  Sure, many are covered by warranty etc., but the used market isn't the same.

I colleague of mine has links to a Land Rover dealer nearby, and said they have received Range Rovers from the factory with faults - even before sale.

Another friend uses a phrase which I think is apt... "don't buy a 60-grand car unless you accept 60-grand car repair bills".

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Complexity does not necessarily equate to unreliability, lexus for example produce complex vehicles too but with good reputation for reliability.

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1 hour ago, SPendrey said:

Another friend uses a phrase which I think is apt... "don't buy a 60-grand car unless you accept 60-grand car repair bills".

I think here is the crux of the matter; I don't want to spend £60k, nor I am prepared to accept £60k car repair bills! 

Manufacturers love to sell £60k cars because the margin for them is much greater than on a cheaper vehicle. The economic margin between success and failure is much wider. That they can screw you on the repairs and servicing afterwards is icing on the cake! 

I am looking for a durable car, say 20-30 years, as I am a believer in "Reduce, reuse, recycle" and believe that consumerism is wasteful, ultimately a dead end for humanity. My 110 and 90 are currently the best fit for that objective I can find; there is nothing in the current JLR product range that comes close.

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2 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Perception is reality. Reputation starts at the dealership, vehicle experience and how swiftly issues are sorted under warranty.

If problems arise with a vehicle still under warranty are handled quickly, efficiently,  courteously, with the least inconvenience to the customer then the overall impression given is that the parent company and its franchised dealers cares for its customers. Sadly my experience of buying new JLR products has meant getting things fixed under warranty has meant dealing with a system with an attitude that almost begrudge repairing their products. Customers first have to convince warranty managers that there is an issue and then the manager has to convince JLR. Hassle creates frustration and ill feeling in the customer which is further aggravated when repairs are not effective long term.

Most individuals who buy new don't want to fix their own vehicles.

Amazing numbers here too ... 

When you couple that resistance to handle warranty claims - but then read :

Quote

According to Automotive News, Jaguar Land Rover's warranty costs over the past nine months of 2020 were $680 million—nearly half of what they were during that same chunk of 2019

So I think that’s in 9 months of 2019 they had $1.36bn of warranty costs - when they don’t rush to take them on ... 

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2020 isn't a good year to include in a comparison... many of those cars won't have done the 'normal distance' due to lockdown.  My commute bill dropped to zero, that must mean therefore that the cost of fuel has dropped!  Wrong.

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When my wife and I went to buy her a 90XS almost a decade ago, the salesman immediately started slagging the vehicle off and told us how what we really needed and wanted was an Evoque.  He didn’t listen to a word we said and just tried to force his view.  Even though he was just a lowly salesman at a franchised dealer, so not a direct LR employee, that arrogant behaviour comes from the very top of LR and filters through the entire customer experience.  

My few experiences of their franchise dealer workshops has been one of dishonesty, incompetence and lethargy.  

I agree that the issue is as much perception as mechanical reliability.  Where many other brands also have vehicles that are prone to faults, many of them will at least try to help the customer and deal with faults efficiently.  Not LR.

They have had a lot of abusive owners, and Ford left a lot to be desired, but all Tata are interested in is short term sales figures by persuing bling-orientated models.  Repeat customers are low because the ownership experience is so costly and painful.  That has never been an LR strong point, but it does seem to have become markedly worse, and in the mean time, they have alienated loyal fans of the marque by dropping lines of parts of older vehicles, making spiteful and frivolous legal claims over petty trademark issues (Roverdrive was one pointless case, but the Landie books was especially vindictive).  They also turned their back on the working vehicle markets, from emergency services, armed forces, civil engineering and power companies and farmers to adventurers, campers and private users, essentially insulting them in the process by their aloof attitude towards blue collars.  Meanwhile, they continue to let McGovern insult the traditional owners.  They can’t help themselves.

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On 5/4/2021 at 12:31 PM, Quagmire said:

Complexity does not necessarily equate to unreliability, lexus for example produce complex vehicles too but with good reputation for reliability.

Not only that, but how they deal with warranty claims is worlds apart from JLR too.

Many times I have listened to customers about the negative experience of a problem with a later JLR product and how they try to infer that is the fault of the driver, and that the claim is actually chargeable.

Mind you, when the Audi R8 came out around 15 years ago, my boss bought one. He had a phone call to say it was ready to collect. As we were passing in the van, he said we would go and have a look at it. Walked into the showroom looking as we did, and not one salesman even acknowledged our presence all the time we were there looking at it.

After the gearbox failed after three months, they tried to say that it had been "loaded" too much. It had done 400 miles, as he had bought it as an investment, si it had hardly been out of the garage. That took six months to sort out after a bun fight with Audi. Dealer attitude was appalling IMO

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57 minutes ago, Snagger said:

When my wife and I went to buy her a 90XS almost a decade ago, the salesman immediately started slagging the vehicle off and told us how what we really needed and wanted was an Evoque.  He didn’t listen to a word we said and just tried to force his view.  Even though he was just a lowly salesman at a franchised dealer, so not a direct LR employee, that arrogant behaviour comes from the very top of LR and filters through the entire customer experience.  

My few experiences of their franchise dealer workshops has been one of dishonesty, incompetence and lethargy.  

I agree that the issue is as much perception as mechanical reliability.  Where many other brands also have vehicles that are prone to faults, many of them will at least try to help the customer and deal with faults efficiently.  Not LR.

They have had a lot of abusive owners, and Ford left a lot to be desired, but all Tata are interested in is short term sales figures by persuing bling-orientated models.  Repeat customers are low because the ownership experience is so costly and painful.  That has never been an LR strong point, but it does seem to have become markedly worse, and in the mean time, they have alienated loyal fans of the marque by dropping lines of parts of older vehicles, making spiteful and frivolous legal claims over petty trademark issues (Roverdrive was one pointless case, but the Landie books was especially vindictive).  They also turned their back on the working vehicle markets, from emergency services, armed forces, civil engineering and power companies and farmers to adventurers, campers and private users, essentially insulting them in the process by their aloof attitude towards blue collars.  Meanwhile, they continue to let McGovern insult the traditional owners.  They can’t help themselves.

Agree with all of that. Went to look at a new 90 in 2014/15 with the other half and had an identical experience - the minute they heard we werent interested in an evoque and we were test driving the dirty old defender in the dark corner of the showroom they lost interest. So did we at that point to be fair!

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36 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Agree with all of that. Went to look at a new 90 in 2014/15 with the other half and had an identical experience - the minute they heard we werent interested in an evoque and we were test driving the dirty old defender in the dark corner of the showroom they lost interest. So did we at that point to be fair!

Down our way LR would not even get a 90 or 110 to try. They told customers to go to Wales. It would ruin their image!

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19 hours ago, Snagger said:

That has never been an LR strong point, but it does seem to have become markedly worse

Have Land Rovers (and their dealer service) actually got objectively worse, or is it more a case of them being left behind by much of the rest of the industry? A few decades ago, all cars were unreliable - these days most of them are pretty trouble free with only basic maintenance, despite increasing technology levels on even budget cars. Buyers expect their car to just work, even if it's a budget brand. Actually, maybe especially if it's a budget brand - the likes of Kia really threw down the gauntlet to the western manufacturers.

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5 hours ago, geoffbeaumont said:

Have Land Rovers (and their dealer service) actually got objectively worse, or is it more a case of them being left behind by much of the rest of the industry?

That is a really good question and I don't know how you could get an objective answer. JD Power surveys suggest that all vehicles are better than they were in the 80s-90s.

Back in the days when I worked for a motor trade extended warranty company, 1989-96, some marques were much better than others, with Lotus being particularly rubbish and Honda/Toyota and Hyundai much better than most. (Warranty costs killed the Lotus Elan (FWD), when GM ran out of patience).

Anecdote only, JLR seem to have lots of niggles with software and poor handling of sensor failures.

Again, anecdote only, main dealers seem to be more rubbish than before; I have never found big, corporate dealers any good, with issues with Vauxhall, Ford, VW, BMW and LR main dealers all being more flash than substance. All warranty claims being resisted up to the point I set my sister, (scary ex-corporate lawyer), on them or I go and sit in the dealer principal's office and explain what I know about the motor trade and the Sale of Goods Act.

I am willing to cut the supplying dealer some slack as cars are complex machines and stuff can go wrong, but lie to me or tell me it is my fault or fail to fix the issues at the third attempt and I turn nasty. (Exhibit A, VW Polo light switch, Exhibit B, VW Beetle Cabriolet roof, Exhibit C, BMW 520D wiring loom. The BMW got rejected, the VWs fixed at VW's expense, although they got very close to Court). 

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I hate LR dealers with a vengance.. and I speak as someone who has tried to strike a deal for 3 x D4’s and a D5 over the last 10 years - each of the D4’s did 100k in three (warranty covered) years and one spat its’ engine at 46k.

 

Servicing team had a new engine agreed by LR, fitted, tested and back to me within five days - it did get a bit tense when I dropped the dead truck in on the back of an AA vehicle with a comment that you ‘couldn’t just turn up with a broken vehicle’ but they soon saw sense!

 

By comparison, servicing nightmares with Audi (A5 with multiple issues), Mercedes (first vehicle rejected, replacement still had issues but we ‘just lived with it... really, on a £50k car??) and Mini.  Don’t start me on Mini - over 4 months in the dealership with a series of courtesy cars whilst they struggled (and failed) to fix induction issues and poor running to the point of not being safe on a motorway or at speed on dual carriageway.

 

Beauty in the eye of the beholder - very happy overall with the JLR service response and reliability...

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21 minutes ago, LiftedDisco said:

not being safe on a motorway or at speed on dual carriageway.

Some of the fault responses in modern land rovers make them positively dangerous if a fault occurs at speed. Two that immediately come to mind on the D3:

1. faulty brake light switch- pull out and use kickdown to gain speed quickly. Poor contacts in the brake switch, bong bong bong, suspension lowers to bump stops, no throttle and speed limited to 50. Car behind rams you as you have no throttle. Nice one land rover....

2. steering angle sensor failure - due to the crappy plastic disc they never fixed properly to the steering column. You are travelling in a straight line but with a slight turn of the steering wheel to the right, the computer decides you have entered a 360 spin and throws the ABS on, on the left side of the vehicle. That makes perfect sense land rover. Thanks for adding that completely unnecessary and badly engineered sensor. Well done. 
 

Its no wonder JLR dont score well for reliability. 

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1 hour ago, Mo Murphy said:

Well, I'm not missing those features on my clockwork 90 !

Mo 😬

I have said before that the design thinking seems be more about “can we add this” rather than “should we add this”.  Too many manufacturers these days love to throw electronics at everything because they think that they will be reducing liability with extra safety devices, but so many of these safety devices cause safety issues, including far too often very expensive maintenance that causes owners to skip servicing and routine maintenance.  Modern vehicles are far to complex for their own good or that of their owners, and LR especially so.  But the management seem to ignore the lessons and keep increasing the problem with each new model.  Their reputation will continue to decline because their cars are getting ever costlier not just to buy but to maintain, their depreciation is growing exponentially because the second hand market owners see the costs, and LR management and customer service attitudes continue to deteriorate.

I really pity the shop floor staff.  If the management treat customers so badly while wanting to take their money, I can’t imagine how badly they treat people they think they own.  I only want to see the company survive for the staff benefit.  As a business, they deserve to fail and be a lesson to others.

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2 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

Well, I'm not missing those features on my clockwork 90 !

Mo 😬

What, you mean you know which way the wheel is pointing so you don't need a pointless sensor on the steering column?!

I still jump in the 110 when I have a choice. 

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3 hours ago, Snagger said:

I have said before that the design thinking seems be more about “can we add this” rather than “should we add this”.  Too many manufacturers these days love to throw electronics at everything because they think that they will be reducing liability with extra safety devices, but so many of these safety devices cause safety issues, including far too often very expensive maintenance that causes owners to skip servicing and routine maintenance.  Modern vehicles are far to complex for their own good or that of their owners, and LR especially so.  But the management seem to ignore the lessons and keep increasing the problem with each new model.  Their reputation will continue to decline because their cars are getting ever costlier not just to buy but to maintain, their depreciation is growing exponentially because the second hand market owners see the costs, and LR management and customer service attitudes continue to deteriorate.

I really pity the shop floor staff.  If the management treat customers so badly while wanting to take their money, I can’t imagine how badly they treat people they think they own.  I only want to see the company survive for the staff benefit.  As a business, they deserve to fail and be a lesson to others.

Hmm 737 Max MCAS!

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