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FridgeFreezer

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the problem that mags like TOR have is that they are aimed at quite a specialised market. This market raelly wants one of 2 things:

1. Ideas to improve their own trucks - AND HOW TO DO IT

2. theoretical discussions that explain some of the important bits and bobs that the vast majority of us layman don't get- the intricacies of suspension setup and design for example!

showing a few pics of a truck with a couple of pics and a list of "mods" and which company did them (or just saying that M X is a mechanical engineer and uses the work facilities) isn't of interest to most of us.

back to back tests of various producst would also be useufl- surely it can't be that hard to design an impartial winch test- invite allt he manufacturers along and test installation, powere, reliabilty, speed, modifications, value for money etc etc! it's not impossible but does take some work.

what needs to be produced is some authoratitive articles on vehicle design and build. TOR really neds to be the practical performance car mag of the off roading world or it just isn't goign to survive.

Ads are fine, but they better make sure that the editorial and features are damn good too- at the moment TOR just doesn't cut it and, as a subscriber, i find that very hard to take.

If a mag produces work detailed above which is informative and useful then i woudl happily pay a £5 for it as it would represent value for money- at the moment it's not value for money at the £3ish it currently is!

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if they think the mags are 'poor' when it comes to feature vehicles, why do they not offer up there creations to demonstrate what can be done?

As Dan said, why would you want to have your vehicle featured by a bunch of idiots who will get stuff wrong, in a magazine you don't like/read?

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the problem that mags like TOR have is that they are aimed at quite a specialised market. This market raelly wants one of 2 things:

1. Ideas to improve their own trucks - AND HOW TO DO IT

2. theoretical discussions that explain some of the important bits and bobs that the vast majority of us layman don't get- the intricacies of suspension setup and design for example!

showing a few pics of a truck with a couple of pics and a list of "mods" and which company did them (or just saying that M X is a mechanical engineer and uses the work facilities) isn't of interest to most of us.

back to back tests of various producst would also be useufl- surely it can't be that hard to design an impartial winch test- invite allt he manufacturers along and test installation, powere, reliabilty, speed, modifications, value for money etc etc! it's not impossible but does take some work.

what needs to be produced is some authoratitive articles on vehicle design and build. TOR really neds to be the practical performance car mag of the off roading world or it just isn't goign to survive.

Ads are fine, but they better make sure that the editorial and features are damn good too- at the moment TOR just doesn't cut it and, as a subscriber, i find that very hard to take.

If a mag produces work detailed above which is informative and useful then i woudl happily pay a £5 for it as it would represent value for money- at the moment it's not value for money at the £3ish it currently is!

Ditto,

Can anyone remember LRW a long time ago when Alan Kid edited and Tony Parrot (?) was the technical editor, very very good tech and funny well written articles.

When this debate kicked off i thought back to those mags and even dug a few out of the loft for a read and they are still informative and entertaining.

If total off road adopted that format i'd be more than happy to buy it.

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As Dan said, why would you want to have your vehicle featured by a bunch of idiots who will get stuff wrong, in a magazine you don't like/read?

Another "issue" is that they'd tittle the artical with the "ultimate", "Extreme" or some such other cringe worthy superlative.

Which would be ok;

If they were featureing a driver, nav, vehicle combo that'd actually done something noteworthy, ie won an event

I'd be left with a bit of a hollow feeling if my vehicle was titled as such when in previous months the title has gone to such luminarys as that suzuki with home built long travel suspension but all terain tyres, or that extreme "on off build" that was a boggo tropper with a lift, 31's and a winch bumper.

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As Dan said, why would you want to have your vehicle featured by a bunch of idiots who will get stuff wrong, in a magazine you don't like/read?

If you dont like it or want to read it, whats the problem, cancel the subscription and use the change for a few extra litres of petrol and go play!

Fine the mags might be getting lazy, well the best way to voice opinions has got too be to tell them, how else are they going to know, as far as they are concerned the silent masses keep buying it soo it must be ok, they aint pyschic!!

Personally i couldn't give a monkeys fiddlers elbow, they are all on par, but sometimes i see something i like and buy it, if not, it stays on the shelf.

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OK just a couple of points.

It seems to me reading this thread that some people are mixing up "expert" and "enthusiast" and fogetting that neither description imply that one must a top points scoring competitor.

Secondly I wasn't trying to sayt this thread or this forum are one make bias, as my clumsy english seems to have been interprited. I was likening some of the biggoted coments to those that I have encounted at Landrover shows, on Landrover forums and from Landrover owners. Generaly I like this forum because of the diversity of vehicle that I know the members drive and their ingenuity and imagination when trying to create the ultimate off roader.

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Well at least you didn't say "Extreme" :P

You'd have probably have to duck from the 'Virtual' www stylee old boots tomatoes and cabbages lobbed at you :lol:

When you take all of the above and sift it through there is a market for a UK mag that has tech / detail / knowledge ....

and not shiney / we bolt on a mudflap and do a 6 page 15 picture report type mag

I know this - I too have had my old LRs in mags, the photographers had no knowledge, and neither did the (well known) Journio editor at the time. I had the "Been in 4x4 mags man and boy pet talk" yet when you merely scrathed the surface the knowledge was dire and hopeless.

I had a 86" Series 1 80 inch hybrid 2x ARBs and all sorts of werid stuff

When the article came out it was headed along the lines of

"The top boys better look out at this years ARC nationals as this LR could clean up awards :hysterical: "

I would have failed the ARC is more ways than I could count - I never mentioned the ARC Nationals, - so where did that come from, when I queried it as to how stupid that header was he had NO IDEA AT ALL :o

Frankly I have given up on UK mags, this months USA Pedersons 4x4 has been read now for most of this and last week the articles are superb and so much to take in, TOR took 5 mins flick through and handed back.

I think the UK mags are all frightened of moving away from the norm / pack / safe as they see it, they worry about the competiton and so all end up the same, there is no mag worth buying, maybe the odd issue, they replay on new 4x4 owners buying the mag and driving new membership / subs etc, with 4x4s now as a fashion item the tiome will come when the drivers of 4x4 fashion wagongs go out of trend and mnove on to something else, it has started, then the UK mags will have a problem big time.

Those who worked in the 4x4 mag industry with real knowledge have moved on, thos in it would struggle to have a teh conversation on this forum, they are journos 1st and 4x4 drivers 4th and tech knowledge and skills 11th, the bits inbetween involve puffing their importnace, collecting advertsm, having a following of worshippers and blagging and waffling about things they have no real knowledge about but are legends in their own minds....

The USA mags are edited not by 2Journos" but by real 4x4 techy enthusiasts or those with the forsight to see a good thing and they hunt them down. As other shave said there is enough stuff already here to fill a years worth, but they would know what good looks like, unless it is extreme and can be bolted on whilst photographed

As with DD I have a loft of old 4x4 mags - Off Road and 4x4 action was IMHO one of the best.

Buy any UK mag, count the pages and then go through and see how many are adverts, newbie something, lightweight product new on market testing subs pages to subscrbe back issues padding and more padding. Then see out of the 70/whatever plages how many pages are worth a read.......

Hopeless

Nige

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TOR really needs to be the practical performance car mag of the off roading world

You've hit the nail on the head there Jim - PPC is a great mag, they did have a brief phase of arslikhan to Dave Walker "Tuning God" but seem to have calmed down now.

They feature ideas, tech, "what-if's" and decent "how-to's" from the very practical (stick a K-series in an old MG) to the insane (stick a Merlin in an SD1), all written by people who have done it with their own hands - they have scraped knuckles, they have found out that things don't work or don't fit, they have lost money, they have worked round problems that you would encounter. They don't pay specialists to do stuff for them, or if they do they tell you why, what they did and how you could do it yourself if you had the facilities.

Their projects use parts that you can source from a scrapyard if you want to, or one of their advertisers (which is mentioned but not rammed down your throat), and they don't assume you have a fully kitted workshop to hand.

The fact the mag (and others like it) is going strong should be some indication that there's a market out there for the amateur tinkerer who has a set of spanners, a hobby-mig, and a garden full of car parts. Why the LR mags can't take a leaf from their book is beyond me - you don't buy a 20-year-old LR to take it to a garage every time something breaks or leaks :rolleyes:

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:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

There you go Jon theres your chance to lets us all see what you can do

And remeber what Winston Churchill said

"you can please most of the people most of the time but not all of the people all of the time "

And when you are selling somthing you always go for the majority and not the minority

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