E10 petrol

[Simon_CSK]

All of my road going cars currently run on diesel so this didn't affect me until I got to thinking about my P38 and ny CSK. With the introduction of E10 fuel the ethonol in the new fuel is chorosive to the rubber in the fuel lines and in the seals.

The CSK is a long term project so when I get round to rebuilding it there is every chance that it can be upgraded however I have just checked the government website and Land Rover say anything older than 1996 is not compatable. Like leaded petrol I am sure there will be fixes coming along but am interested in know what others are doing about this?

[Bowie69]

Change the fuel hose out for ethanol safe stuff (widely available), and if storing the car, either drain the fuel or keep the tank fully topped up to avoid condensation.

Most importantly use it regularly.

[miketomcat]

Or use super unleaded.

Mike

[Gazzar]

I think this is a sign of the future. Dino fuel will get harder to find, as it's not worth the effort. Over time it will end up like paraffin, not impossible to find, but not available in every town.

 

[zardos]

Or make your own low ethanol petrol (Just need some water and food colouring).

 

[monkie]

Other than the fuel hose, what else is it going to damage? I'm sure there will be replacement parts that are compatible. 

1 hour ago, Gazzar said:

I think this is a sign of the future. Dino fuel will get harder to find, as it's not worth the effort. Over time it will end up like paraffin, not impossible to find, but not available in every town

As long as there is demand it will be sold. I can't see the demand dropping off completely like it had for paraffin for many decades yet. Funny you mention paraffin though, I bought some from my local petrol station for my camping stove last weekend. Paid £11 for 5 litres though! 

[Gazzar]

Sure, it might take decades, hopefully, but I suspect it will be quicker than that. Despite their current shortcomings, and higher prices, I noticed a lot more electric cars on the road recently, one in two hundred, I'd guess.

As soon as the price is closer to parity with Dino powered vehicles then they'll start to dominate the PCP market. 

I give it ten years max before electric is more prevalent than Dino powered.

[Stellaghost]

3 hours ago, zardos said:

Or make your own low ethanol petrol (Just need some water and food colouring).

 

I agree but it's a faff on for how much you would need if your car is your main driver regards Stephen

[missingsid]

7 hours ago, Simon_CSK said:

All of my road going cars currently run on diesel so this didn't affect me until I got to thinking about my P38 and ny CSK. With the introduction of E10 fuel the ethonol in the new fuel is chorosive to the rubber in the fuel lines and in the seals.

The CSK is a long term project so when I get round to rebuilding it there is every chance that it can be upgraded however I have just checked the government website and Land Rover say anything older than 1996 is not compatable. Like leaded petrol I am sure there will be fixes coming along but am interested in know what others are doing about this?

Doesn't actually say it isn't compatible just that you stick with E5 to be sure.

My Kwak Z1000 is stuck on my garage as the E5 melted the tank resin that the previous owner sealed it with, now it has sealed carbs!

[Simon_CSK]

I never really gave it much thought as I am mostly driving diesel but still have petrol vehicles.

I am inclined to agree that petrol will be around for a long time yet and despite Boris's proclimation to ban new petrol and Diesel cars by 2030 I cannot see how we can create the infrastructure to provide the necessary power in 9 years. The logistics just don't make sense.

[Simon_CSK]

8 hours ago, zardos said:

Or make your own low ethanol petrol (Just need some water and food colouring).

 

My neighbour was telling me that.

Mix the petrol with the dyed water agitate it then let it settle. Then able to remove the ethanol as the water floats on the petrol.

[Stellaghost]

10 minutes ago, Simon_CSK said:

Then able to remove the ethanol as the water floats on the petrol.

Not quite the petrol floats on the water ethanol mix, so you can drain water away from the bottom regards Stephen

[Simon_CSK]

3 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

Not quite the petrol floats on the water ethanol mix, so you can drain water away from the bottom regards Stephen

I was just about to correct that sorry. 😚

[monkie]

1 hour ago, Simon_CSK said:

My neighbour was telling me that.

Mix the petrol with the dyed water agitate it then let it settle. Then able to remove the ethanol as the water floats on the petrol.

This soubds a bit dodgy to me doing it in any quantity. If you do want to try it and do it properly, after you have separated the petrol from the water it will still be quite wet, you will need to dry the remaining water from the petrol by mixing it with anhydrous magnesium sulphate and then filter it off. Not worth the effort in my opinion. 

[Simon_CSK]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

This soubds a bit dodgy to me doing it in any quantity. If you do want to try it and do it properly, after you have separated the petrol from the water it will still be quite wet, you will need to dry the remaining water from the petrol by mixing it with anhydrous magnesium sulphate and then filter it off. Not worth the effort in my opinion. 

Not to mention the fact that you loose 10% of the fuel

[Steve King]

The fuel does not store very long as has been mentioned, so lawnmowers, chainsaws, hedge trimmers etc could be affected.

Owners of classic cars should only put in the bare minimum of fuel, or be prepared to drain the fuel tank!  There are products on the market that claim to reduce the effect of E10 on hoses and gaskets, but is there anything that will make E10 store longer and remain effective?

My 1967 Riley Kestrel 1100 (badge engineering at its finest!) slowly progresses to the completion of the restoration and    the cylinder head was converted to unleaded valve seats and the pipes switched to E5 compatible ones.

 

 

[cackshifter]

Your Kestrel will just think it's had Cleveland Discol in its tank. Won't it need super anyway? Sorry, bit OT.

[FridgeFreezer]

On 9/4/2021 at 10:12 AM, Gazzar said:

I think this is a sign of the future. Dino fuel will get harder to find, as it's not worth the effort. Over time it will end up like paraffin, not impossible to find, but not available in every town.

I don't think it's quite that bad - the road fleet is still something like 99.9% ICE cars and unless EV's get a lot more practical we're not going to see the whole world drop their ICE cars overnight - remember the average car on the road is something like 7-10 years old. We've got a hell of a long way to go before anyone's turning the taps off.

Honestly I see this as more like when they phased out lead in petrol - sure a few oddities will have trouble adjusting but almost all the other stuff out there will rock along just fine perhaps with minor work to replace a few vulnerable parts - this time round it's only really going to be hoses and gaskets not valve seats so not exactly the end of the world... if your fuel hoses are old enough to be vulnerable to E10 they were already pretty old anyway!

[Happyoldgit]

This has done the rounds some old vehicle groups to which I belong just recently. I take no credit for it whatsoever. Now I am no expert on these matters so if this contains iffy information please don't have a go at me...

The great Ethanol debate:

A question that is constantly being asked right now, particularly with the introduction of E10, is whether Ethanol based fuel will harm my bike? As a previous industrial chemist and owner of several classic bikes and cars I decided to address this controversial subject and provide answers to many of the questions being asked. Hopefully, this will lead to an explanation on the consequences of using Ethanol based fuel and address what changes need to be made and what don’t. Using Ethanol based fuel basically comes down to a case of damage limitation. Some of the questions being asked right now include:

Will Ethanol based fuel corrode my fuel tank?

Will Ethanol based fuel corrode my carburettor?

Will Ethanol based fuel attack my fuel pipes?

Will Ethanol based fuel attack rubber seals and gaskets?

Does 2 stroke oil mix properly with Ethanol based fuels?

Does Ethanol based fuel increase the risk of engine seizures?

Does Ethanol based fuel give the same performance as non-Ethanol based fuel?

How long can Ethanol based fuels be stored for?

Will a fuel stabiliser work to prevent moisture absorption and increase storage life?

Can Ethanol be removed from fuel?

Are there any non-Ethanol fuels still available?

The main problem with Ethanol is that it is hygroscopic which means that it has an affinity to absorb moisture from the air. It is this water that causes the ensuing damage since it will, over time, corrode many of the metal parts it comes into contact with. Needless to say, the actual conditions required for the fuel to absorb significant levels of moisture must be considered. The greater the headspace in the fuel tank, the greater the chance of moisture absorption due to increased surface area of exposed fuel. Remember that fuel tanks are essentially vented to atmosphere, as are gravity fed motorcycle carburettors. Moreover, the higher the relative humidity, the greater the chance of moisture absorption. Excessive fluctuations in air temperature can also cause condensation to form which is quickly absorbed by the Ethanol. The best way to reduce moisture absorption to an absolute minimum is therefore to keep the tank topped up to the brim wherever possible and avoid exposure to severe temperature fluctuations. Keeping the bike under cover helps significantly here.

Now onto the damage caused by absorbed moisture in the fuel. The main question is whether the absorbed moisture causes corrosion of metal parts? If the fuel is used before moisture build up becomes significant then corrosion damage is unlikely. However, if the fuel is left for any length of time then excessive moisture build up will start to cause corrosion damage particularly to steel and aluminium parts. Fuel tanks, fuel taps and carburettors are the main problems here and it is not uncommon to witness significant corrosion of carburettor internals when left standing over time containing Ethanol based fuels. Soldered components such as carburettor floats are also quite vulnerable. Ethanol based fuels should be used within a couple of months at the very most and drained from the tank and carburettors if left any longer than this. In any event, modern fuels do not store very well since the octane rating deteriorates if left for any longer than this. Ethanol based fuels are also more unstable than non-Ethanol fuels.

Now onto rubber components. The term rubber is a bit of a misnomer. Seals, gaskets and pipes are made from a wide range of elastomers including Nitrile (Buna N), Neoprene, EPDM, Viton etc. etc. and this is where the problem lies. Whilst some elastomers exhibit very good resistance to Ethanol, many do not. Generally, motorcycle fuel pipes are made from neoprene which is extremely resistant to Ethanol so no problem there. However, many seals and gaskets are made from Nitrile (Buna N) which has very poor resistance to Ethanol. Ethanol can cause these seals and gaskets to swell over time whilst some elastomers can become quite brittle. It’s best to swap out any problematic seals and gaskets in the fuel system (taps, carburettors etc.) for a more resistant material, though this is easier said than done since many manufacturers and OEM’s do not state what material has been used in the manufacture of these items. This is a difficult one and it’s often a case of suck it and see. If Ethanol based fuels appear to be causing problems with seals and gaskets it’s best to replace the affected items then avoid Ethanol based fuels altogether. Unless, of course you can identify and obtain Ethanol resistant seals and gaskets made from more resilient materials which exhibit very good resistance to Ethanol. Most modern engine and fuel systems (post 2000) have already been manufactured incorporating seals and gaskets made from more resilient materials.

A popular misconception about Ethanol based fuels is that they can increase the risk of engine seizure. There is no real credible evidence that Ethanol based fuels increase the risk of seizure despite the fact that a 10% Ethanol addition will have a slight (2.6%) leaning effect. Moreover, 2 stroke oils mix with Ethanol based fuels just as well as they do with non-Ethanol fuels. The idea that Ethanol based fuels can contribute to engine seizure is a myth that should be ignored. However, it should be noted that the calorific value (energy content) of Ethanol is less than that of Petrol so we can expect a small difference in performance when using Ethanol based fuels though hardly significant with 10% Ethanol (E10). In some countries like Australia where 85% Ethanol (E85) fuels exist this has become more of an issue but UK fuels currently contain a maximum of 10% Ethanol so not really an issue.

Another common question is whether a fuel stabiliser will work to prevent moisture absorption and increase storage life? In a nutshell, No. Fuel stabilisers do not work to prevent moisture absorption and do very little to retain the octane rating of a fuel during long term storage. Stay away from them, you are wasting your money!

There are some people out there suggesting that Ethanol can be removed from fuel by mixing water with the fuel to soak up the Ethanol and subsequently draining off the remaining fuel layer. This does actually work but it’s all a bit of a faff and then there’s the issue of disposing of the remaining Ethanol/water mixture safely. It’s better to try and source a non-Ethanol based fuel in the first place such as Esso Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 or Synergy Supreme+ 99. These are still to be made available in the UK so I am told. Although the forecourt pumps have E5 labels on them, Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 is actually Ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). Also, Super Unleaded will still be available for another 5 years which contains only (upto) 5% Ethanol. The less Ethanol the better. I think we’re getting the picture now.

Another option, should an owner wish to keep a bike fuelled up during longer term storage is to consider filling up with an Alkylate fuel which is Ethanol free and is very stable during long term storage. This is available and sold under the brand name Aspen in the UK and whilst it does work well it is very expensive.

Indeed, there are definite consequences when using Ethanol based fuel in older engines. In summary I would recommend using non-Ethanol based fuel where available or look out for Super Unleaded which contains only 5% Ethanol. Where it is not available, I would recommend that anyone using Ethanol based fuel keep it in the tank only during the active season when the bike is frequently being started and run to ensure that the fuel does not stay for too long in the bike. All the while, keep a watchful eye on any seals and gaskets within the fuel system and ensure that fuel pipes are made from neoprene. It’s easy enough to source neoprene fuel pipe and it’s not expensive. When the time comes to lay the bike up, ensure that all Ethanol based fuels are drained from the tank and carburettors and flush them through with paraffin. It is the lesser of two evils since fuel taps and carburettors are best stored filled with fuel to prevent seals from drying out but not with Ethanol based fuels. If possible, fill the tank with enough Alkylate (Aspen) fuel just to be able to flood the fuel tap and carburettor for Winter storage. Other than that, a light coating of 2 stroke oil mixed with a little paraffin can be used to coat the inside of the fuel tank to prevent corrosion.

[reb78]

5 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I don't think it's quite that bad - the road fleet is still something like 99.9% ICE cars and unless EV's get a lot more practical we're not going to see the whole world drop their ICE cars overnight - remember the average car on the road is something like 7-10 years old. We've got a hell of a long way to go before anyone's turning the taps off.

Honestly I see this as more like when they phased out lead in petrol - sure a few oddities will have trouble adjusting but almost all the other stuff out there will rock along just fine perhaps with minor work to replace a few vulnerable parts - this time round it's only really going to be hoses and gaskets not valve seats so not exactly the end of the world... if your fuel hoses are old enough to be vulnerable to E10 they were already pretty old anyway!

I agree mostly. Its the carbs and fuel pumps as well as the lines that I am worried about. Getting rebuild kits for some of the older rarer stuff is hard enough, but now they need to be ethanol friendly. Its all doable but its a bloody pain. I still need to do the valve seats on my old Vauxhall so will need to do all of this at the same time too.

[Snagger]

15 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I don't think it's quite that bad - the road fleet is still something like 99.9% ICE cars and unless EV's get a lot more practical we're not going to see the whole world drop their ICE cars overnight - remember the average car on the road is something like 7-10 years old. We've got a hell of a long way to go before anyone's turning the taps off.

Honestly I see this as more like when they phased out lead in petrol - sure a few oddities will have trouble adjusting but almost all the other stuff out there will rock along just fine perhaps with minor work to replace a few vulnerable parts - this time round it's only really going to be hoses and gaskets not valve seats so not exactly the end of the world... if your fuel hoses are old enough to be vulnerable to E10 they were already pretty old anyway!

I think current events will put a lot off EVs, with electricity supply in the UK getting extremely expensive and question marks hanging over its dependability, some commentators already predicting rolling blackouts like in the 70s.  I certainly wouldn’t have an EV without and ICE vehicle in reserve until the UK is energy independent.  I imagine a lot of drivers all over the world are starting to think that way this week, given the scale of the problem that Russia is inflicting across Europe.

[missingsid]

Great info Happyoldgit, my Si is kept in a hot/cold and damp container depending on time of year. So I have to worry about my new tank rotting and the fuel pump diaphragms.

But the good news is re the non E10 fuels, all the petrol stations in my town have been taken over by Esso so although they control prices it does mean a good supply of low/non ethanol fuel I did not know of. In fact if I had known this I could have saved my Kwak 1000 tank from E5.

[cackshifter]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if one blocks the tank vent except when in use, does that not go some way towards alleviating the problem?

[ThreePointFive]

My biggest complaint is the smell. It's like normal petrol mixed with ammonia or something equally unpleasant.

Not the most important consideration for a fuel, I know.

[Alsace_rangie]

Just to help the panic 😀

here in France, E10 has been the main 95 octane option for a few years.  my '97 Saab rune fine on it, have tried it in a '93 Mini and is OK, but do use 98 low ethanol in that as well.  My Land Rovers are diesel...

But now they a rolling out E85, and it'll be half the price. Lots of new cars will be ready to use this (may need setting up) so not sure what that will do to the general scene.