Chassis Data/Datums and Dimensions

[Cluaran]

Hello Gents, 

Slow progress rebuilding my 1999 110 TD5. Working from back to front I've discovered awful, terrible, extensive rust on the front offside chassis. So bad that I was able to waggle off the coil spring mount by hand, the outriggers look like sieves and the dumb irons look like they have been filled with chocolate flake. So bad that large portions of the external wall and bottom of the rail have disintegrated. So bad that I am really in two minds whether it can be restored or whether I should bite the bullet and get a galvanized chassis. I fear that would be quite a palaver however as I'm doing this on the gravel drive with no ramp as autumn and winter approach. So I've decided to do my absolute damndest to either weld in patches or completely encase remaining good metal with new steel plate and to reinforce as much as possible. Has anyone else ever reached this lowpoint? Anyhow, the main point of this post is to ask if anyone can advise where I can find the basic dimensions for a 110 chassis. Perhaps it's me but I find it hard to decipher the diagrams I have found in the Workshop Manual published by Brooklands (LRL 0410BB). For example, I can't seem to work out the distance between the 110 dumb-irons - which is given for a 90 chassis. And it's not clear (to me at least) which points on the chassis are used as the datums from which measurements are taken. I'm concerned that with the vehicle on ramps and the offside chassis weakened these may have sagged or moved and I may want to ratchet-strap them back into place. Any advice on how to keep my spirits ups...? 😕 

[cackshifter]

Hi I feel for you, I have been in a similar position. Part of the problem is that the rust will have come from the inside as well as the outside. I'm afraid you have to face up to a chassis swap sooner  rather than later, as if there is anything more disheartening, it's when you have to do it again. If you have to patch it to buy some time, I would urge you don't patch over rust, but cut out and replace - I know sometimes easier said than done, but just work steadily through it. I think @western  faced a similar issue a bit back and managed to get his chassis swap done quite quickly, without a ramp (you would need a bit of room). He has a build thread on here somewhere.

[western]

Here is my chassis change thread, 

https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/85416-new-chassis-for-my-1989-110/

 

[Cluaran]

Thanks Cackshifter and Western. Yes, I fully grasp the advice about not welding over internal rust and the potential future heartache... The challenge I see is how much of the cack I can shift (geddit?) to reach good metal on the outside in particular. I'm concerned that I might have to remove so much that the remaining good metal buckles. So I've been trying to think through a strategy whereby I firstly remove and treat as much internal rust as possible before welding on 3mm plate over the good/better metal on the inside of the rail to reinforce, and then tackle the outside - welding over the remaining good metal and then welding on a new bottom. Effectively encasing the rail before welding on a new outrigger/spring mount. However, it really does feel like a cross-roads and I'll have a good read of Western's thread before deciding whether buying time is a false economy. But, Jeez! the previous owners must have parked in seawater! 

Thank you also for the .pdf of the manual Cackshifter. Unfortunately, this is the same kind of diagram I have in my own version and I just don't seem to be able to work out how to read it. I can't seem to find any reference to the distance between the 110 dumb-irons. As I said, perhaps it's me. 😐 

[Stellaghost]

Construct a box section framework extended from sound chassis sections that picks up on all the important points thus if chassis then collapses during clean down your framework will give you all-out datums to repair back to regards Stephen 

[Cluaran]

Thanks Stephen/Stellaghost. I think you've described with better words what I've been stumbling towards. But can I just clarify if you mean using the the existing chassis rail as the pattern from which to fabricate a completely new chassis rail (i.e. box section) which replicates and could replace the original if the original crashes... or to make a model of the original (a 'framework' with all the important points) which can be referred to if the original crashes whilst I'm trying to weld sections on to the remaining good metal?... if that makes sense? 

[steve b]

With the utmost respect , if it is as bad as you say , patching it while still a built vehicle will end up wasting your time and even stripped would be a significant project for an experienced home fabricator in a workshop .

Also , I suspect trying to repair it may destroy your enjoyment of having a Land Rover Defender to use ? 

If you want it long term and can possibly afford it , replace the chassis or even pay someone to do it . A basic swap is not so much money these days through a good independent set up for quick swaps 

Speaking as a welder/fab with too many rusty repairs littering my past 

Some good pic's might help to solidify any choices .

Steve 

[Cluaran]

Many thanks for your sobering words Steve. I will post some pictures tomorrow as suggested. It really does feel as if I'm on the brink. Having tackled the rear of the vehicle to my satisfaction, the front has been largely stripped (cab, bonnet, wings, radiator...) because I wanted to address footwell rust (driver's side already cut out and removed) which revealed the state of the front end of the chassis... So I have pretty good access to the rail. But the sequencing of any remedial work, and doing it safely on the gravel, especially after I had to remove the offside coil spring, is indeed daunting (I would use plenty of axle stands) and really could only be justified to buy time. I really appreciate your comments about your own past experience dealing with rust and wasting time - I often need a kick up the backside to know when to quit 😵 ... As you say, the pictures may help to tip the balance. 

[Stellaghost]

3 hours ago, Cluaran said:

Thanks Stephen/Stellaghost. I think you've described with better words what I've been stumbling towards. But can I just clarify if you mean using the the existing chassis rail as the pattern from which to fabricate a completely new chassis rail (i.e. box section) which replicates and could replace the original if the original crashes... or to make a model of the original (a 'framework' with all the important points) which can be referred to if the original crashes whilst I'm trying to weld sections on to the remaining good metal?... if that makes sense? 

No what I meant was attaching a frame work to any good existing sections of the chassis and then extending off that to pick up datum points/ hole centres so that it the sections you are working on crumble away you can reconstruct to all the reference points you have pre prepared, some light box would do the job, I appreciate it's harder with the body on regards Stephen

[Gazzar]

For what it's worth.

I did what you're proposing, see my lightweight rebuild thread.

But in a decent, well lit workshop, with a few years of chassis repair experience.

And I had to convince myself it was the right thing to do. It was for me, as the chassis was the largest remaining part of my vehicle. I also felt it was the right thing to do for a vehicle that had served.

For you? A new defender chassis isn't cheap, but not expensive. It would be solid, true, reliable for a long time, and add value to your vehicle more than anything else. 

 

There's more fun fitting bits to a chassis, than chasing rust holes around with a welder.

 

I think there's a new Polish manufacturer that's quite good value, so might be an option.

[landroversforever]

I’d have to agree with all the above. If it’s that bad that you’re not sure what’s left will the the repairs then you’ll only be constantly going over it again. Get some pictures up but I suspect you’ll just be way better off with a new chassis. 

[paime]

I'd echo the sentiments above. Just think how much you're going to spend on gas, wire and steel which will only delay the inevitable. When you buy your new chassis and bolt everything on you'll likely kick yourself for not doing it sooner. It's a big undertaking but there's so much experience on here to draw from and I'm sure nearby folk will lend a hand if you get stuck.

[Gazzar]

https://www.maer.com.pl/land-rover-defender-110-chassis,946,0.html

 

No idea how good they are, but they are visiting shows in the UK with good prices for purchases there and then.

[Cluaran]

Thank you very much gentlemen! I hear the core advice loud and clear. As promised, here are some pictures taken this morning showing the problem. (I can almost hear all the bad language! 😂 I certainly used some! ) My own first reaction was that this was surely the end of the road... but niggling doubts and a bit of hope crept in which I've been trying to balance ever since. It does look pretty terrible doesn't it? Has anyone ever successfully restored anything like that before? A new chassis seems such an obvious option... but COULD this ever be made to hold out another year or so... for example using Stellaghost's suggestion... or is it really just too far gone and a complete waste of time even to contemplate? Gazzar's comment about tackling such stuff in a decent well-lit workshop (as opposed to on gravel with midges up my nose!) really hit home... But honestly, Jeez! how could it have got so bad...? (I should add that the vehicle has been standing unused on axle stands under tarpaulin for well over two years as I tinkered with it ...) Many thanks for your straight-talking. So, what's the verdict? 

[Cluaran]

16 hours ago, Gazzar said:

For what it's worth.

I did what you're proposing, see my lightweight rebuild thread.

But in a decent, well lit workshop, with a few years of chassis repair experience.

And I had to convince myself it was the right thing to do. It was for me, as the chassis was the largest remaining part of my vehicle. I also felt it was the right thing to do for a vehicle that had served.

For you? A new defender chassis isn't cheap, but not expensive. It would be solid, true, reliable for a long time, and add value to your vehicle more than anything else. 

 

There's more fun fitting bits to a chassis, than chasing rust holes around with a welder.

 

I think there's a new Polish manufacturer that's quite good value, so might be an option.

Thanks Gazzar, I'll check out your thread. Very impressed with your own persistence... and common sense! 🙂

[Gazzar]

Honestly, in the UK insurance environment, that's scrap. On an island where brakes are optional and timber is acceptable to fix broken chassis, maybe okay?

If you were ever in a crash and they could pin 5 percent of the blame on your welding, you'd be in prison.

[Bowie69]

You'd spend more time repairing that than swapping a new chassis under it.

Unless you are a very skilled welder/fabricator (and judging by that you are even asking this question, likely not) there's just no way of making that good and safe again.

[Cluaran]

6 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

Honestly, in the UK insurance environment, that's scrap. On an island where brakes are optional and timber is acceptable to fix broken chassis, maybe okay?

If you were ever in a crash and they could pin 5 percent of the blame on your welding, you'd be in prison.

I think that's a fair and pretty decisive comment! And I guess the horrors which you have had to deal with in the past have been, perhaps, less horrific! I am just amazed at how such deterioration came about so quickly. Thanks for the honesty.👍

[simonr]

Having seen the photos, it's unlikely the rest of the chassis is in good condition either.  If you were to attempt to repair it, I suspect it would be like painting the Forth Bridge - you would forever be chasing the next hole.

Replacing the chassis is probably your safest and least work option. 

Si

[Cluaran]

18 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

You'd spend more time repairing that than swapping a new chassis under it.

Unless you are a very skilled welder/fabricator (and judging by that you are even asking this question, likely not) there's just no way of making that good and safe again.

Thanks Bowie. Sometimes I guess we just need others who have 'been there' to confirm what our own eyes would prefer not to see and tell us to 'stop'! The safety and time aspect I think is the decider for me. I guess the real point is that however good a welder may be, he can't weld onto such a poor foundation... and I think Gazzar hit the nail on the head by referring to the insurance aspect. Many thanks for your contribution. 👍

[steve b]

By the time you clean back to good weldable metal it will just be the running gear . 

This has been stored outside waiting a new chassis for 5 years , '97 110 sw and was rusty when taken off the road but not this bad 

The new chassis in the workshop is from Marsland and comes stamped with the VIN in the correct place . About 4 weeks from order to delivery along with B/C/sill assys. and all the other sw related brackets and shock turrets.

The odd thing is that while the chassis looks like this , the BH is almost mint and after minor repairs will also be galv'd. 

I've not seen one that rusty so far forward as yours is . Coastal related corrosion I'd imagine at some point .

Steve

[hurbie]

the "eurover" project was in a similar state , it has been most of it's life in Scotland .....

 

don't weld , just replace with a galvanised one , and your set for another 30 years ....

[Gazzar]

If you treat the galv properly, and don't let it near salt......

[hurbie]

2 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

If you treat the galv properly, and don't let it near salt......

no need to , a friend of mine own's a 88 serie's 3 , swapped the chassis a good 20 years ago for a galvanised one , didn't do anything to it , and it is always stored outside ..... so far no rust anywhere ..

(we live very close to the Nordsea , and in the netherlands they use a lot of road salt in winter time)

[Gazzar]

Conversely my 109 has to have a replacement front bumper after 15 years as it had rushed through.

Though I suspect that vehicle was speaking salt or something when it was working for the local authority that owned it