2 1/4 diesel nightmare

[warbirdflyer]

Hello LR4X4 . Checking in from the colonies. The nightmare began a year ago. I purchased an overhauled 2 1/4 diesel for my 81 S3. From a reputable firm in the UK. The motor was never right. I cannot bore you with the muck. But, I am sitting on a 2 1/4 that is running , but it will not produce power. (35 mph)  Local series LR shop is suggesting to go to petro engine. I was hoping to keep her original. But, I am beyond my patience limit. Any thoughts. Oh yes. I have a roamerdrive ready to install into the overhauled gear box. 

[hurbie]

it works beter if you post some more info , did you bought a "short block" engine , or a complete one , did the injectors and fuelpump been checked before fitting etc ... is the timing set correctly ...

what gearbox, tyres, diffs etc ...

[steve b]

Welcome to the forum , 

Is the fuel injection pump timed correctly ? Has it been overhauled ? 

As above , did you buy a fully built engine ? 

What , if any , colour is the exhaust smoke at flat out ? 

Is the throttle linkage set correctly to give full throttle at full pedal ?

Finally , and not least , is the engine stop fully off ? Should have a return spring to a bolt and anchor plate on the oil filter housing.

Steve

[deep]

First thing I would do is check the air and fuel supply.  Those 2286 diesels had an air valve in the inlet manifold (a feeble attempt at providing vacuum for the brakes).  It might not be opening?  If it's struggling to get enough air, it will be underpowered.  Obviously check for other obstructions to the air supply. 

Then I'd check fuel supply.  Best way is to start by disconnecting the pipe from the fuel pump to the injector and pumping the primer lever (or get someone to turn the starter for a second or two.  If that is flowing well, crack open an injector hose (with the engine not running!).  Then start the motor and rev it for a second - it should obviously spray diesel out.  I'd suggest wearing eye protection for that one.  If that's looking good, I'd remove the injectors and get them tested.  It's not too hard nor expensive.

If those tests are all good, next check is injector timing, as the other two have noted.  I think if it was a compression issue, it would hard to start but you could get that tested for peace of mind?  These are simple motors.  They're not renowned for power but you should be capable of near enough 60 m.p.h., provided the gearing/brakes/bodywork/tyres are as they should be.

[warbirdflyer]

Here is some more details. I purchased a plug and play option. Pull the old and drop in the new. I had an overhauled engine shipped from the UK. The engine was running in the video from the rebuild shop in Yorkshire. All rebuilt, Dist pump, new alternator, etc, etc. Injector pop off pressure checked w/ good pattern.  Upon arrival and installation in the US, the damn thing would not start. Further investigation finds that the dist. pump skew gear was missing. How and why, I have zero clue. had to be tampered with says the shop in the UK and US!????  Finger pointing has brought me to this point.  Months later and timing checked by a local diesel shop and the engine is still not producing power. The engine barely smokes at idle. But at full throttle, black smoke is evident. Not sure if the rings have seated.  Original gearbox overhauled and functioning. Had hours of timing the dist pump assistance from Craig of CSM Retro Restoration. But the bottom line, the local classic LR shop is unable to get it operating correctly.  Previously, The vehicle would comfortably run at 55 mph prior to the engine swap. Yes, it was loud as hell, smoked like a chimney (hence the engine change) Thanks in advance. 

[Romahomepete]

I would be advocatingh changing your land rover shop if they are recommending going petrol istead of sorting your engine.

Any competent land rover workshop should be able to correct the faults on a land rover diesel engine, they are not rocket science

Peter

[warbirdflyer]

I wish I had another option. They are few and far between in the US. 

 

[Snagger]

I suspect the engine you received and the engine in the videos are not the same, and that you have been sold a broken, repainted engine if the skew gear was absent.  “Reputable” is a term that has a sliding scale - there are many companies that make claims about their good standing but actually have dire reputations.  Britpart, , John Craddock, even Land Rover themselves, anyone?  I’d be curious as to who supplied that engine.  Tell us who, even by direct message if you don’t want to publicly, and we can tell you if they really do have a good reputation.  As a long time owner of these vehicles, one who has bought engines and repaired them myself, I’d only consider Turner Engineering and ACR “reputable”.

[norseman]

I'm going to be really contentious here & ask the question that others have probably held back on ... why would someone from the land of 'there ain't no substitute for cubes' buy a puny 2.25L diesel?

Even with the UK's high fuel prices the market over here for such underpowered & mind numbingly slow vehicles is reserved for total masochists 😏 

Even amongst our farming community, traditional users of LR products, you'd have to search long & hard to find such a museum piece still in use.

No offence intended though, I hope you get the problem sorted.

 

[Nonimouse]

31 minutes ago, Snagger said:

I suspect the engine you received and the engine in the videos are not the same, and that you have been sold a broken, repainted engine if the skew gear was absent.  “Reputable” is a term that has a sliding scale - there are many companies that make claims about their good standing but actually have dire reputations.  Britpart, , John Craddock, even Land Rover themselves, anyone?  I’d be curious as to who supplied that engine.  Tell us who, even by direct message if you don’t want to publicly, and we can tell you if they really do have a good reputation.  As a long time owner of these vehicles, one who has bought engines and repaired them myself, I’d only consider Turner Engineering and ACR “reputable”.

I'd echo this.

But I would also do some investigation. Check compression, lift pump flow, timing and pump timing. This is a very, very simple engine. Drop the rock cover off and see how clean the rockers are is. What state is the coolant in.

US diesel used to have a lower calorific value than UK diesel - is this still the case

Also worth noting, in the good old days, the top speed of a 2.25 diesel was 45-50mph . You had to wind the pump on to get higher speeds - 80mph is possible, but the get a bit of smoke (thing California forest fires)

[steve b]

I think the OP went like for like for originality ? 

If the skew gear was missing on delivery that is a major fail . Were there packing seals when shipped ? Was it shipped with a known engine block number ? Was this block number clearly evident in the video ? 

To pursue the supplier it may need to be stripped and assessed on video . 

As for current running issues , black smoke at full throttle is an indicator of too much diesel/not enough air in the combustion or possibly too advanced on the FIP timing. 

In it's current installed (?) and built state some basic checks could be done .

Compression test both cold and hot 

Valve lift with a dial gauge (checking for cam wear)

Remove timing chain cover and double check cam to crank timing .

It's a great shame that you are in this situation and the supplier appears to be denying liability, clearly not a small investment .

 

Steve

[Cory]

I'm currently having the same issue with my diesel.  I had the injection pump rebuilt by a local diesel shop.  They did a great job! Ran like a top! 

Fast forward 2 years... I try to restart it after a frame resto and bulkhead repairs.  I get it started but way under power!!! I can't even get enough to pull out. 

So I put on an temporary electric lift pump to bleed out all the air.  Made a minor improvement.  Plus changed the timing all around after checking it.

End result is i took my pump back the other day to the diesel pump rebuilder for checking and cleaning.  We'll see what happens

I would suggest the same as above.  First check the condition of the engine. Like.. compression, check the valve clearance, etc....

Nice to see another Pennsylvania, USA person posting.

[steve b]

Cory , I suspect the combination of disconnected fuel lines for an extended period and the bio component in the diesel may well have gummed the inside of the FIP. It will be interesting to see what your specialist says .

Steve

[deep]

12 hours ago, norseman said:

I'm going to be really contentious here & ask the question that others have probably held back on ... why would someone from the land of 'there ain't no substitute for cubes' buy a puny 2.25L diesel?

Even with the UK's high fuel prices the market over here for such underpowered & mind numbingly slow vehicles is reserved for total masochists 😏 

Even amongst our farming community, traditional users of LR products, you'd have to search long & hard to find such a museum piece still in use.

No offence intended though, I hope you get the problem sorted.

 

Oh dear, that sounds like it was written by a twelve year old!  Chuggy old diesel Land Rovers have a lot of charm, are great fun to drive and are far less prone to worries about brakes and steering.  If you are pottering around your village/farm/forestry block, wasting thousands of dollars/pounds on pointless power (and losing the originality of a rapidly-appreciating vehicle) doesn't make any sense at all.  

If you want a sports car, get a sports car.  If you want a sports car/Land Rover combination package, get a 3.2 Freelander/LR2.  Either way, a Series Land Rover will never be that, no matter what motor you inflict on it.

[rednaxela]

No plugs on the crated engine to prevent dirt ingress?

The engine doesn't appear to be a 5 main bearing unit, which I'm certain it should be for a 1981 model.

Edited September 9, 2021 by rednaxela

[steve b]

18 minutes ago, rednaxela said:

 

18 minutes ago, rednaxela said:

The engine doesn't appear to be a 5 main bearing unit, which I'm certain it should be for a 1981 model.

The man has a point , which I had missed  , as a direct '81 replacement it should be a 5 mb block with ribs on the outside . Also should be red oxide type finish .

Steve

[norseman]

1 hour ago, deep said:

Oh dear, that sounds like it was written by a twelve year old!  Chuggy old diesel Land Rovers have a lot of charm, are great fun to drive and are far less prone to worries about brakes and steering.  If you are pottering around your village/farm/forestry block, wasting thousands of dollars/pounds on pointless power (and losing the originality of a rapidly-appreciating vehicle) doesn't make any sense at all.  If you want a sports car, get a sports car.  If you want a sports car/Land Rover combination package, get a 3.2 Freelander/LR2.  Either way, a Series Land Rover will never be that, no matter what motor you inflict on it.

I don't see why my post should be compared to that of a 12 year old when purely stating an opinion, which I mistakenly assumed was the aim of a forum. I am in fact 76 years old & since the age of 19 owned five series vehicles (some of which have served me well in LR club competitions) all of which have been petrol powered. I have also owned four V8 Range Rover classics, including the original example I've now had for thirteen years.

I was merely surprised at the OP's choice of a 4x4 in the land of cheap (by European standards at least) fuel & large capacity engines.

nb.  I disagree with you on your comment 'a series LR will never be that' My love child would be a Stage One V8 station wagon.

[Gazzar]

My view, not aimed at anyone:

 

Each to their own, and no better vehicle than a series to allow that.

I'm happy with the changes I've made to my truck, I own it for me, not for it's value, nor it's historic context.

 

I will defend and applaud the right of others  desire to keep their series historically accurate.

 

Within the confines of the legislative environment the vehicle is used, of course.

 

 

[Nonimouse]

13 hours ago, deep said:

Oh dear, that sounds like it was written by a twelve year old!  Chuggy old diesel Land Rovers have a lot of charm, are great fun to drive and are far less prone to worries about brakes and steering.  If you are pottering around your village/farm/forestry block, wasting thousands of dollars/pounds on pointless power (and losing the originality of a rapidly-appreciating vehicle) doesn't make any sense at all.  

If you want a sports car, get a sports car.  If you want a sports car/Land Rover combination package, get a 3.2 Freelander/LR2.  Either way, a Series Land Rover will never be that, no matter what motor you inflict on it.

Not directed at Norseman

But I like what Deep is saying here. The whole 'need for power' rush that has spawned the 'bad, but quick and easy tuning' industry really gets my goat. Rolling coal, four wheel burnouts, needless swaps for massively overweight, drive train destroying truck engines... Trying to turn a 4x4 into a sports car  All seems so pointless. The phrase is 'enough power to do the job'. I love a series, although I prefer the 2.25 pet, the 2.25 diesel does the job, and it did the job for decades, quite happily. It's a great off road engine as you really have to try in order to break the power train, it has enough power to maintain traction, where more powerful vehicles simply can't. It has eight forward gears for towing, so will tow a Rice Box with two hunters in all day, without the worry of a speeding fine or a cattle box with three bullocks in, that will reach market without any stress.  Does what it says on the tin

Added to which, if you think it's gutless, noisy and thirsy, try driving a Turner engined Series One - now that's an experience 

[Anderzander]

I have a Turner engined Series 1 !! 😱

[Nonimouse]

36 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

I have a Turner engined Series 1 !! 😱

An old friend bought an 88" Series One , about thirty years or more ago.

It had a Turner two stroke, three cylinder fitted, from factory. The lump was in poor state of repair, so he whipped it out and fitted a 2.25 petrol. Over the years he slowly rebuilt the Turner, then, about five years ago, he fitted it back in the 88".

Worth noting that he is part of a small group of two stroke enthusiasts, based down here on Sedgemoor, so he was more than familiar with the 2 stroke diesel issues. But the engine was truly awful. Gutless, almost unuseably loud and soooo very thirsty. Thinking he's made a mistake in the re-build, he approached a local early Land Rover Guru, who had used Turner engines Land Rovers back in the 50's. Chap took it for a spin, came back, got out, and said "that's just about like new".

 

[steve b]

That's new info to me , I thought I knew all the early Land Rover engine variants , very interesting . Are they liquid cooled Nonimouse ? 

My personal favourite odd-ball was the 81" B40 engine , way too heavy of course but a lovely engine .

Steve

[L19MUD]

30 minutes ago, steve b said:

That's new info to me , I thought I knew all the early Land Rover engine variants , very interesting . Are they liquid cooled Nonimouse ? 

My personal favourite odd-ball was the 81" B40 engine , way too heavy of course but a lovely engine .

Steve

Me either....some interesting reading here

 

http://turnermanufacturing.org.uk/turner-jenbach-list-cerlist-diesel-engines

 

Sorry to the OP, we have gone off topic!

[Nonimouse]

Yup, liquid cooled, three cyclinder. I'm pretty sure they were factory fitted, not a dealer option. It was a time when two stroke diesels were very popular. In our little 'club' we have single twin, horizontally opposed, v twin, three, four, five, six and V12 two stroke set ups. My favourite being the 6/71.

Having driven my friend's 88", I fully understand why he removed the turner lump and boxed it up, then replaced it with a re-built 2.25 petrol

 

Apologies to the OP

[Anderzander]

So … @warbirdflyer what’s your plan ? What next ? 
 

Some good suggestions here for what to check.