Poor performance 110 200tdi

[Maverik]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

I've had a few 200tdi's and they remain my favourite engine. I've done all sorts to them over the years. But this has got me thinking.

Your description of the 'Hybrid Turbo' is exactly what I thought it would be. I remember the adverts and my Van Akren tuned 90 (back in the early 90's) had seomthing similar. It will have a very similar torque curve to standard - it's essential ly a better built T2.

If you wern't in the far North, I'd need to pop round to have a look

Got me head scratching too.

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

I've had a few 200tdi's and they remain my favourite engine. I've done all sorts to them over the years. But this has got me thinking.

Your description of the 'Hybrid Turbo' is exactly what I thought it would be. I remember the adverts and my Van Akren tuned 90 (back in the early 90's) had seomthing similar. It will have a very similar torque curve to standard - it's essential ly a better built T2.

If you wern't in the far North, I'd need to pop round to have a look

🙂 Very generous of you! 

[Jocklandjohn]

Well its a well looked after engine, must have 200k on it with no real issues, run very sympathetically and never thrashed, it has fresh oil & filter religiously every 4k miles, valves checked every year, air and fuel filters regularly, injectors pulled and serviced etc and I even change t.box, g.box and diff oils at regular intervals too, and I have added magnetic plugs wherever I can fit them to pull out cooties and try my best to keep it in good nick. It was eating lift pumps for a spell - I went through 4 or 5 in as many years- their diaphragms were failing, but this one has lasted quite well. But to be honest performance with each of them until they failed was similar, with poor hill pulling ability. 

I'll await the experts opinion - the lads who are going to look at it have their own LR's (numerous of them in fact!) and do loads of specialty builds and servicing so I'm pretty sure they can eliminate the obvious. Its due a timing belt change anyway so we can start with that and once we know its all timed up, and the FIP is bang on too, take it from there.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Peaklander]

Don't let them remove the belt until they have checked the tooth alignment / timing. Otherwise you might never know what has been the root cause.

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

Don't let them remove the belt until they have checked the tooth alignment / timing. Otherwise you might never know what has been the root cause.

Good point - will do. I'm really intrigued to see whats afoot.

[Nonimouse]

Just an aside. I used to used to go through lift pumps on my last 200. so when I put this one in the Disco, I payed out on the Glencoyne spacer. Not sure if it works, but I've yet to kill a lift pump

[Jocklandjohn]

The Glencoyne spacer?  Never heard of it so just looked. Seems like a good idea, but I never knew the lift pump arms were failing too (groan!). 

[92a]

I've also put a Glencoyne spacer on my 200tdi , mines in a series , seemed to help on the long drag up the M25 slip road  to J8 at  Reigate , just seemed to have a bit more power and a few more MPH all the way up,  this my favourite place to check the performance of my Land Rovers 

[92a]

also a look in the fuel filter to see if it's full after a run can be worth a try , I've just replaced the lift pump on my 300 tdi as mine was only half full and wouldn't bleed on the lever , filter is full and bleeds up easily now 

[Maverik]

47 minutes ago, Jocklandjohn said:

The Glencoyne spacer?  Never heard of it so just looked. Seems like a good idea, but I never knew the lift pump arms were failing too (groan!). 

here have a look at this.

Land Rover fuel pump spacer and fittings 2.5 200 300 TDi Defender Discovery | eBay

[reb78]

7 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Just an aside. I used to used to go through lift pumps on my last 200. so when I put this one in the Disco, I payed out on the Glencoyne spacer. Not sure if it works, but I've yet to kill a lift pump

I could never get my head around when we should be using a spacer and when not everyone has a different theory on it! I see Richard has tried to explain it on the ebay link above but it still seems a bit vague/hit and miss!

I got fed up with the failing lift pumps and put an electric one on mine in 2015.

Edited October 1, 2021 by reb78

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

I could never get my head around when we should be using a spacer and when not everyone has a different theory on it! I see Richard has tried to explain it on the ebay link above but it still seems a bit vague/hit and miss!

I got fed up with the failing lift pumps and put an electric one on mine in 2015.

Thanks all. Well it seems simple enough, reduces the arc of travel so not reaching the stressing limits and (in theory) not failing so easily.  Interesting!

I think I'll swap out the lift pump, I carry a spare one under the seat after the last one dumped me on the Pentland Hills 130 miles from home one night!

I did look at electric pumps (I think I followed your how-to guide from several years ago) but the fiddly solution to having it ignition-switched & pumping when the engine was actually off got my head frazzled. You had a solution though?

Edited October 1, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[reb78]

20 minutes ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Thanks all. Well it seems simple enough, reduces the arc of travel so not reaching the stressing limits and (in theory) not failing so easily.  Interesting!

I think I'll swap out the lift pump, I carry a spare one under the seat after the last one dumped me on the Pentland Hills 130 miles from home one night!

I did look at electric pumps (I think I followed your how-to guide from several years ago) but the fiddly solution to having it ignition-switched & pumping when the engine was actually off got my head frazzled. You had a solution though?

I put it on a switch. Interestingly, when I forget to turn it on, the 110 will still steam along at 80. I think wiring it to a relay triggered by the oil pressure sender means its only on when the engine is on - sure someone said that on here. 

[monkie]

I've transferred the setup across from @ianmayco68200tdi. It is an electric pump which is feed via a relay switched from the alternator charge warning feed. 

[Jocklandjohn]

12 hours ago, reb78 said:

I put it on a switch. Interestingly, when I forget to turn it on, the 110 will still steam along at 80. I think wiring it to a relay triggered by the oil pressure sender means its only on when the engine is on - sure someone said that on here. 

I remember there being considerable discussion about the way to achieve this, and someone else mentioned that the fuel FIP) pump was able to 'pull' sufficient fuel through itself (but someone else warned there was no free lunches and the FIP might suffer!).  Ah the intrigue!

[Jocklandjohn]

10 hours ago, monkie said:

I've transferred the setup across from @ianmayco68200tdi. It is an electric pump which is feed via a relay switched from the alternator charge warning feed. 

Ah ok - thats a good tip. As an aside does the alloy breather/separator work better than the plastic one? Heard various observations that the plastic one's internals are less than useful?

[monkie]

2 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Ah ok - thats a good tip. As an aside does the alloy breather/separator work better than the plastic one? Heard various observations that the plastic one's internals are less than useful?

That photo was one Ian sent me. I have got the original plastic one. 

[Jocklandjohn]

5 hours ago, monkie said:

That photo was one Ian sent me. I have got the original plastic one. 

Ah ok. Was unsure whether the internals were similar.

[Troll Hunter]

A very interesting thread.  Several times it has been suggested that the air inlet piping to the turbo should be disconnected and the turbo allowed to breathe totally unrestricted.  This test would indicate or remove a de-laminating rubber air inlet line as the problem.  Despite these recommendations I have not seen the result of this easily performed test being reported, or have I missed it?  I have suffered from this failure mode, and it resulted in the engine running normally at tick-over but lacking power when under load.  The extent of loss of power would depend on the degree of de-lamination.

Mike

[Gazzar]

It's a good test, but can accelerate wear unless the air is clean, so I can understand why people are reluctant to try it.

[Jocklandjohn]

16 hours ago, Troll Hunter said:

A very interesting thread.  Several times it has been suggested that the air inlet piping to the turbo should be disconnected and the turbo allowed to breathe totally unrestricted.  This test would indicate or remove a de-laminating rubber air inlet line as the problem.  Despite these recommendations I have not seen the result of this easily performed test being reported, or have I missed it?  I have suffered from this failure mode, and it resulted in the engine running normally at tick-over but lacking power when under load.  The extent of loss of power would depend on the degree of de-lamination.

Mike

I've been away (from home and the vehicle) for several days so not able to do anything, but its on the list of to-do's and will report back what I find! In meantime have ordered new lift pump and some other fresh bits so will ensure all the ancilliary gubbins are in good nick too.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Troll Hunter]

On 10/3/2021 at 10:51 AM, Gazzar said:

It's a good test, but can accelerate wear unless the air is clean, so I can understand why people are reluctant to try it.

I hardly think that a few minutes of running without the air filter is going to be detrimental.  For this test you don't really need to go on the road.  In my case the tick-over was fine, but as soon as I tried to rev I couldn't get above about 1500rpm, without being in gear, the engine was strangled.  Removed the hose between air filter and turbo and the engine was back to normal. 

Mike

[Jocklandjohn]

Now that I'm back in the same place as the vehicle...I should manage this tomorrow and will report back on the outcome. Was going to get in about it this afternoon in my 'outdoor workshop' as well as do a valve clearance check but rain stopped play.

On 10/4/2021 at 7:49 PM, Troll Hunter said:

I hardly think that a few minutes of running without the air filter is going to be detrimental.  For this test you don't really need to go on the road.  In my case the tick-over was fine, but as soon as I tried to rev I couldn't get above about 1500rpm, without being in gear, the engine was strangled.  Removed the hose between air filter and turbo and the engine was back to normal. 

Mike

 

[Sigi_H]

I ran my Ducati 900SS without open intake for 90.000km quite harder than a Land Rover engine.

Result: two sets of Pistons

A few minutes without filter is absolutely no problem, as long as you can garantee no hard parts flying in the turbo.

[Jocklandjohn]

On 9/30/2021 at 11:45 AM, Maverik said:

Can you take a few photos of your engine? - I'm intrigued to see your turbocharger and induction set-up.

If you have a VNT turbo - they work in a different way to a standard turbo and if the vane modulator has been faffed with this will have an effect on what its doing. - My Turbotechnics VNT is set to "boost" at 1.25 - 1.45 bar actuation range. - this I got from Pete Bell at Bell Auto who makes the Alisport VNT kit.

 

Picture for you maverik...and some progress too!

Today checked valve clearances - all hunky dory, one a smidgeon out but otherwise all fine. Took a spin, no change.

Pulled fuel 'out' pipe off lift pump and the pump pumps like a pump and does the fuel moving spurty thing as I'd expect. It was put on a couple of years back after several others failed (I replaced at least 4 in as many years).

Removed pump completely and inspected it, all seems to be intact, all working nothing appears to be amiss as far as I can see, and it sucks and blows and all that. Replaced it with a new Delphi pump and added the Glencoyne spacer as suggested on here previously.

Just had a run - considerable difference in smoke, pulls cleanly in 1 and 2 and where an early change to 3 would have a noticeable plume I got a minor puff and then it runs clean. I can feel a noticeable sprightliness that was previously absent although still not pulling like I think it should - I was still struggling to to pick up speed in 5th but doing so 'cleanly' as opposed to puffing out black smoke. So running cleaner and with a bit more vigour for sure.

I noticed the change in fueling has affected the turbo boost, which seems down on previous maxing out at 1bar instead of the 1.2 or thereabouts it was going up to before.

I ordered one of the boost valves as Mo recommended so will fit that which will make adjustment easier and see what difference that makes.

So a wee bit progress and whatever was up with that lift pump goodness only knows but it was like that from the minute I took it out of the box. I'd a breakdown in the hills behind Edinburgh a long way from home and the AA man agreed with my lift pump failure diagnosis so I got trailered back to the Highlands (it was Sunday so no spares available). I replaced the duff pump, and ran it for 6 months, then replaced it with a new one so I could keep what I knew was a working one under the seat as a spare. However neither are anywhere near as good as the one I've just fitted!

So it seems I got two that were total pants! That makes 7 lift pumps I've fitted in a dozen years. Hmmmm.

Unless of course the Glencoyne spacer has got fairy dust on it? Could it make that difference to pump operation??

So next step (not today) is to check all air intake pipes and see if anything has delaminated or is leaking.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Jocklandjohn