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Poor performance 110 200tdi


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23 minutes ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Unless of course the Glencoyne spacer has got fairy dust on it? Could it make that difference to pump operation??

 

Interesting question - I can't see why. But...the engine I fitted last year is the best 'standard' 200tdi I've driven and I put a Glencoyne spacer on it before fitting. I only use Delphi pumps... It's got minor tweaks, yes. But nothing like the last lump and yet it pulls better. Loads of lower down grunt and so smooth. Might be the fact it's a Goldseal lump, but who knows. Maybe it is magic

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Curious - if the pump arm is moved further away from the cam (thus reducing movement range) does the consequent fuel volume being moved affect the feeding of the FIP in some way? My experience today is *almost* as if an over-fuelling state has been reduced somehow. Obviously other issues may be afoot (I still need to check air hoses for leaks/problems) - timing belt change and fuel pump timing check are booked for a few weeks so once all that is done the main culprits will have been eliminated.

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2 hours ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Curious - if the pump arm is moved further away from the cam (thus reducing movement range) does the consequent fuel volume being moved affect the feeding of the FIP in some way? My experience today is *almost* as if an over-fuelling state has been reduced somehow. Obviously other issues may be afoot (I still need to check air hoses for leaks/problems) - timing belt change and fuel pump timing check are booked for a few weeks so once all that is done the main culprits will have been eliminated.

No, i dont think so. My understanding is that you need to keep the FIP supplied well and any excess just goes back to the tank in the return line. It wont force it to over fuel if you push more fuel into it. 

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Maybe worth reposting this thread,

 

 

 

I've never found a need to add any spacers to the lift pump mounting plate to my 200tdi, they should all have this built in spacer, IIRC my lift pump is a Delphi unit & has been fitted for more than 10years, engine pulls very well in all conditions.

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41 minutes ago, western said:

Maybe worth reposting this thread,

 

 

 

I've never found a need to add any spacers to the lift pump mounting plate to my 200tdi, they should all have this built in spacer, IIRC my lift pump is a Delphi unit & has been fitted for more than 10years, engine pulls very well in all conditions.

Yes I've read your post several times when i was looking for advice Ralph, and all I can say is 'Its a Land Rover thing and it puzzles me. Again!".  

The Glencoyne spacer is less thick than the nylon spacers that I've occasionally found in lift pump boxes, and Glencoyne themselves make a clear distinction between putting the spacer on the mounting plate you show (I presume) and the bare block: "...all four cylinder 2.25 / 2.5 engines with the cast aluminium pump mounting plate, and 300TDi engines where the pump is bolted direct to the block".

Its all very confusing!

 

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Your right there with it being confusing,

the lift pump lobe on the cam is a off centre circular lobe, not like the actual valve lobes, I don't know why some need the Glencoyne spacer & other do't.

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1 hour ago, western said:

Your right there with it being confusing,

the lift pump lobe on the cam is a off centre circular lobe, not like the actual valve lobes, I don't know why some need the Glencoyne spacer & other do't.

As far as I can establish from reading about it, the nylon spacer *seems* (at least on some engines) to move the pump arm out so far that it won't operate. However the slightly thinner Glencoyne spacer does allow operation, but the range of movement is less, thus preventing over-stressing of the arm/linkage and premature failure.

I think!

But I could be completely wrong!

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To add to an old topic - but seems the best place to put it.

Early engines I believe had this type of mounting which is what came from the series engines which the TDI's where ultimately derived, I was reading part of the service manual yesterday and in that it states the 200tdi was designed to use a lot of parts from previous engines.

This is a picture of the early fuel pump mounting plate, as you can see compared to the cast aluminum type as Ralph has posted there is no stand off. - if you put a later type fuel pump on this type of mount then you can suffer lift pump arm damage.

image.png.7359d98790895e5e8f0bccbac2019c3c.png

post-20-002060500%201284837460.jpeg

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15 minutes ago, Maverik said:

To add to an old topic - but seems the best place to put it.

Early engines I believe had this type of mounting which is what came from the series engines which the TDI's where ultimately derived, I was reading part of the service manual yesterday and in that it states the 200tdi was designed to use a lot of parts from previous engines.

This is a picture of the early fuel pump mounting plate, as you can see compared to the cast aluminum type as Ralph has posted there is no stand off. - if you put a later type fuel pump on this type of mount then you can suffer lift pump arm damage.

image.png.7359d98790895e5e8f0bccbac2019c3c.png

post-20-002060500%201284837460.jpeg

Hmmm.  Is there any VIN or age related info for when the later plate was added, or is it just a case of look and see?

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1 hour ago, Jocklandjohn said:

Hmmm.  Is there any VIN or age related info for when the later plate was added, or is it just a case of look and see?

I'd say its a more look and see.

Pretty obvious. - and it makes sense really - its why all "new" lift pumps come with the spacer so they are back compatible with the older engine type.

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you have a N/A or turbo diesel air filter, these are smaller than a TDi one, also your intake pipework doesn't seem right with the large silicone pipes, are these home made? if so what ID are they? I think you said you don't but do you have a larger TDi exhaust on there?

 

A friend of mine had a genuine defender 200 in a TD and we never could get it to pull right, unfortunately it got stolen before we could get to the bottom of it.

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6 hours ago, muddy said:

you have a N/A or turbo diesel air filter, these are smaller than a TDi one, also your intake pipework doesn't seem right with the large silicone pipes, are these home made? if so what ID are they? I think you said you don't but do you have a larger TDi exhaust on there?

 

A friend of mine had a genuine defender 200 in a TD and we never could get it to pull right, unfortunately it got stolen before we could get to the bottom of it.

Td and 200TDi exhausts are the same except the hangers. The td downpipe is also significantly easier to remove because it has an extra join in it. 

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On 10/6/2021 at 4:25 PM, Nonimouse said:

Interesting question - I can't see why. But...the engine I fitted last year is the best 'standard' 200tdi I've driven and I put a Glencoyne spacer on it before fitting. I only use Delphi pumps... It's got minor tweaks, yes. But nothing like the last lump and yet it pulls better. Loads of lower down grunt and so smooth. Might be the fact it's a Goldseal lump, but who knows. Maybe it is magic

Gold seal 200TDis are a myth....

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21 hours ago, Sigi_H said:

I put a TD5 exhaust into my 200 Tdi. The tube is wider. Needs some translation.

https://www-explorermagazin-de.translate.goog/bauberi/defaus21.htm?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=nui

Has got a lot more torque in low revs.

But I think it has nothing to do with this problem.

I have a 2.5" exhaust its 2.5" from the turbo outlet all the way through - in my 200tdi (with "performance" boxes) - it helps keep the exhaust temps down. 

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2 hours ago, vulcan bomber said:

Gold seal 200TDis are a myth....

Luckily not. Unipart built them up and you can check the engine numbers against the factory records if you know the right person.

Not many were done, simply because LR set the bar so high (low) on the 200tdi before they would approve a rebuild - 2litres of oil per 500 miles for example.

So no myth - fact...

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On 10/12/2021 at 7:22 AM, muddy said:

you have a N/A or turbo diesel air filter, these are smaller than a TDi one, also your intake pipework doesn't seem right with the large silicone pipes, are these home made? if so what ID are they? I think you said you don't but do you have a larger TDi exhaust on there?

 

A friend of mine had a genuine defender 200 in a TD and we never could get it to pull right, unfortunately it got stolen before we could get to the bottom of it.

Yes it was a 19J originally, and retrofitted with a 200Tdi. Still uses existing air filter box, and the exhaust is the standard 2.5 system originally fitted (same as Ralph). Intake pipwork is same internal diameter as standard pipes I took off, only difference is I added an additional inlet to the air filter coming from the front wing into a Y just before the air filter housing to ensure sufficient air.

 

But tbh nothing on my vehicle is in any way weird - I've read loads of stuff on here about the various modifications I've made, mainly as suggested or actually done by Vulcan, Ralph, Western, Mo etc and am very conservative when it comes to messing about. And when I've been unsure I've asked for advice!!

Edited by Jocklandjohn
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7 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Are they? They look almost identical to me, or very similar. 

I've been reading this and wondering. As it happens I have a full 19J setup and a defender 200tdi in my garage. I shall measure both (as well as the exhaust) and post it on here. 

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Update.

Having replaced the lift pump (with added spacer) and now able to get it out for a run (had to replace rear shocks first) things have improved. Hill out of town I would normally find myself slowing considerably on and ending up in 3rd at 35 or 40mph I went up in 4th and was nearly at 50mph so thats much better. It pulls more cleanly on the flat in lower gears and has vastly improved clean (ie less smoke) acceleration in 3rd and 4th. However 5th feels sluggish on acceleration until the turbo cuts in, and the EGT's *seem* to have got a bit higher (I've not adjusted the boost which appears to have dropped slightly since fitting the new lift pump presumably due to the change in fuel delivery).

So I'm part way there! The belt is being changed and all the timing (engine & FIP) checked over at the end of this week

From my poking about here in previous threads the symptoms I have appear to some extent to be consistent with retarded timing - easy start, smooth running, slightly grey smoke when starting off that soon clears, high-ish EGT's and poor performance, and worse MPG but with an engine that runs cooler - all of which I have to varying degrees.

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