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Let's cut to the chase shall we?


Happyoldgit

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Not wanting to derail the thread too much, wife has a leccy Renault, and being the nerd I am, I’ve tracked the numbers, and for us it works out the equivalent of paying ~5p a litre for petrol and that’s without having a special tariff / smart meter installed. We’ve seen a noticeable increase in money still in our pockets at the end of the month and she’s only doing a few hundred miles a week.

Our 32A home charge unit was installed fine on our looped 66A home supply - about 8 hours for a full charge to get 230mile range. Odd time it’s got a bit close on range, a 25 minute charge at the servo gets another 30-40 miles, and Tesla’s infrastructure is much better than the generic stuff we use.

Tesla’s own manual says it’s only 32A charge for a home charge point (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen_3_Wall_Connector_Manual_UK.pdf) so not sure where you’re getting your numbers from - might be worth a double check?

Anyhoo, back on topic to Grenadier, I really wish they had got on with it a bit sooner, as there really isn’t going to be a stage where I can justify one in the foreseeable future - at the end of the day the electric use case works well for us, a few more years of range development and infrastructure and we will complete the switchover

Edited by A Twig
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Yeah but how much extra did the vehicle cost in the first place. If I wanted to replace our current estate with something like a VW ID4/Skoda Enyaq, I’d be looking at spending at least £15K extra, and even then it would be missing some features that I have now. That buys a lot of fuel.

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For sure, we’ve always done one big car, one little, which is why we’ve only gone electric on the wife’s car (the little one) so far.

4 year contract hire with the mileage we needed, doing leccy hatchback vs petrol one there was pretty much no difference in the monthly payments.

However, and I guess same as you, there isn’t yet the feature set that we want for our big car on affordable electric, hence as per my earlier post I bought a Volvo estate, as the only conventional car I actually liked and wanted was the Grenadier, which wasn’t available at the time.

By the time I replace the Volvo, maybe 3 or 4 years, I’d expect there to be something electric and affordable that fits the bill (Rivian perhaps?), so I’ll never end up buying a grenadier as it has taken too long to come to market - which was the point I was trying to make, I wanted a Grenadier, was planning on buying one, but now due to delays etc and world situation changing, struggle to see a situation where I would, so for me, the Grenadier ship has probably sailed - this is the "are you buying a Grenadier" thread after all - not the "Leccy cars aren't there yet" thread ;)

Edited by A Twig
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13 hours ago, A Twig said:

Tesla’s own manual says it’s only 32A charge for a home charge point (https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen_3_Wall_Connector_Manual_UK.pdf) so not sure where you’re getting your numbers from - might be worth a double check?

The numbers do match those of @Nonimouse: 4 hours @75A is the same ballpark as 8 hours @32A and the Tesla probably has a bigger battery than the Renault.

I do agree there is little point in going through the hassle to get a 75A charger installed. If you have to wait for 4 hours you might as well accept that you have to charge all night if you want full range. The power needed to really cut down on charging time means it is not viable in residential areas or even at most industrial estates (because the employees cars will be charging at the same time as the machines they operate are running).

I'm not saying there isn't a good use for EVs, I'm thinking postal and other vans like milkfloats (why didn't those catch on?) that sit in the same parking lot every night before starting a short distance tour with pleny of start/stops and often in densely populated areas. But for those like me, without a driveway and with irregular travel habits it's just not viable. Not to mention I like to drive and connect with my car, not being driven/controlled in a playstation environment. 😉

More on topic, I do look forward to seeing the Grenadier in the flesh but fail to see any real benefits over my current fleet so can't see my shelling out for one.

Filip

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Teslas are the same as any other EV and work off a 7.4KW 32A max home chargers, even the Tesla home charger unit they supply is the same with a 7.4KW max. With 3 phase, you can fit a third party 22KW home charger, but the majority of EV’s are limited to 11KW limit of their type 2 AC charger port and the AC to DC inverters they fit in the vehicle, you have to go DC to charge at higher rates, so for now there’s really no point in installing a 3 phase 22KW charger at home.

So the max a standard 7.4KW home charger will pull is 32A, some chargers can be installed with a shunt to monitor draw from elsewhere in the house and can throttle back the charger to not exceed a set limit, for example if you only have a 60A main fuse.

For charging times, it’s easy to roughly work them out, if you got a 74KW useable battery capacity and you need to charge from 0% to 100% you divide by 7.4KW so roughly 10 hours, 50% to 100% roughly 5 hours. In reality it’s going to be slightly longer as you’ll lose ~5-10%, so it’s not as straight forward dividing your battery capacity by 7.4KW, but good enough for roughly it working out.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

All these video's, press and info releases and prototype demo driving days are all well and good but after all said and done I'm a bit bored now so methinks I'll wait until I can get behind the wheel and actually test one for myself - hopefully I will live that long 😆

Thinking further I'm not sure I will want to invest in something that is increasingly, to me at least, looking like it's designed as an old Defender Clone potentially for some of yesterday's markets - I'm perfectly happy to be shot down and educated differently on the latter point though.

Besides, the way the public are swallowing what the media and other sources say and buying into all the climate change razzmatazz the oil burner in the Grenadier is potentially  to be but one option once the end product is established and rolling off the production lines. 

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2 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Thinking further I'm not sure I will want to invest in something that is increasingly, to me at least, looking like it's designed as an old Defender Clone potentially for some of yesterday's markets - I'm perfectly happy to be shot down and educated differently on the latter point though.

I am hoping that the kind words and sentiments about the Grenadier being designed for long life and easy repair comes to fruition. Modern cars are not designed for a long life or easy repair; parts only have to be supported for 10 years after the lines stop by law and so many cars/vans etc are an absolute barsteward to take apart. Just changing a light bulb in a number of popular cars has become an absolute pain. That's before we start taking about the need for "right to repair" legislation to protect the consumer from aggressive IP practises like John Deere and many others. The trojan horse that is "On line Update" is another way a manufacturer can lock you into a monopolistic infrastructure.

Given LR's, (and others), recent performance, do we really think a 2020 Defender will be repairable in 2035 or 2040? I'm currently spoilt as my 1972 Morgan 4/4 and 2000 MX5 NB are well supported, either by the manufacturer or by third parties, but I would be unwilling to give odds for a new Defender, (or X5, G Class or Korando).  

The electronic parts book and factory manual that was briefly on YouTube suggests a more open source approach, the stuff taken down came from https://cadituk.com/. (I wonder if that relationship has survived the YouTube release?) As Ineos has used so many "best of breed" 3rd party suppliers, even if Ineos stop supporting the vehicle, a third party should find it quite easy to pull the threads together.

I want something to keep for a lot of years, not 4 years of a PCP. Reduce, reuse, recycle implies buying better quality, keeping it working  and keeping it longer. My 30+years old LR110 CSW has been in my hands half its life, I'd like something with modern door seals and HVAC designed this decade. 

Ineos are chasing hydrogen as their "green" prime mover solution; I can see their self-interest, the argument for fast refuelling and heavy duty cycles, but the useful energy wastage leaves me wondering. Diesel now and a BEV solution later seems reasonable. If synthetic fuels take off, then the issue may be kicked down the road until the diesel engine fails completely.

Edited by jeremy996
parser not liking profanity!
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Even using quality significant suppliers does not guarantee continued supply. Looking at the Adwest power steering thread shows that they stopped producing/selling boxes for LR products after LR stopped production. It was LRs requirement to support for 10 years not theirs so LR has to hold the stock.

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Personally I'm going to be in my 90's in 30 years time and as I'm no longer interested in DIY servicing on my day to day vehicles [but will happily rip classics apart] and am not buying vehicles to hand on to my grand kids [not that I have any of those yet [thankfully] I'm not looking to buy something that will last into the 22nd century. Selfish? Maybe but I have kept hold of vehicles for years and lain in the dirt fixing them as I needed to use them the next day so my conscience is fairly clear. The way things are going I will see the state of play with the Grenadier in three years time when my new truck is first due for replacement.

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  • 9 months later...

@Happyoldgit Have you seen one ? 
 

I thought it was a Defender Clone (albeit updated with a proper budget) until I saw one. Not easy to explain what changed - but something like: whilst it takes obvious styling cues from the Defender, in the flesh it’s clearly a very different vehicle. 

I haven’t driven one - and I’m no expert on what market is there but my impression is it’s built to be to be strong and last, the interior looked a really nice place to be, and it did look like 9/10’s of its design effort had gone into making it practical and easy to use.

I don’t think it’s built as a hardcore off-roader.

It does look capable and durable though - and that it would be comfy and easy to crunch through big miles road too. 

I don’t know what market that talks to ? But then I wouldn’t I drive a 70 year old car most days - and a 21 year old car when that’s not practical.

But good luck to them. 

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Thinking on the market thing a little more - their research pointed to the many of the professional user groups of the 110’s - utilities, estates, aid agencies.

Which reminded me that I know someone who was a fleet buyer / procurement bod for United Utilities who serve the NW and they tell me no one there wanted to let go of their Defenders - they did pilots of other things, obviously they could get stuff cheaper, more reliable, with better warranty and support - but no matter how their procurement folk pushed for change they clung to their Defenders. It was just more versatile and did the job better.

I think they ran their last purchases for a lot longer than normal, and I think they even still have some in service. 

So it made me think - perhaps Ineos Marketing Research knows what it’s doing and more than we do - and instead of being one man’s folly - it is instead a business confident enough that these business needs remain unmet in the market - and confident enough to merit the investments they’ve secured and/or made ? 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

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I have driven one off-road and been a passenger on the 2B tour. It's like my old (sold) LR110CSW, but bigger, rides at least as well as a P38, has twice the power of my LR, very much quieter, good air con, comfortable seats, controls like an old aeroplane, (big, physical switches - you need to learn their positions as they are not especially ergonomic), relaxing to drive and reassuringly solid.

If the hype is to be believed, it should be capable of being maintained in the field by owner/drivers using a readily available electronic manual and parts book, or you can use a local dealer.

I've ordered one; I want a long lasting vehicle I can maintain outside of a dealer network that was designed recently and can tow my classic cars on a motorsport trailer. I have not met many people who want one, but those who do, are really keen. Locally, there is one man who uses the same agricultural engineers I do, has ordered the full spec launch edition, Trailmaster; he'll use it for his farm work, keepering and towing a stock trailer. His Grenadier will be about £66k OTR; he looked at the LR products but the availability is low for cheap vehicles and the more expensive ones are really expensive!

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1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

@Happyoldgit Have you seen one ? 
 

 

In the flesh, no. I'm still immunocompromised as a result of the chemotherapy so am still advised to avoid mixing with the great unwashed so attending any marketing events etc has not been possible. 

Have you seen one?

I have decided to wait until production models have seen some real world use at the hands of end users before making any decisions regarding purchasing.  I confess my enthusiasm has waned as time has passed and circumstances in the wider world have changed.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Happyoldgit said:

Have you seen one?

I have decided to wait until production models have seen some real world use at the hands of end users before making any decisions regarding purchasing.  I confess my enthusiasm has waned as time has passed and circumstances in the wider world have changed.

I saw 2 at the Great Yorkshire show a few weeks ago, was a pleasant surprise as I didn't know they'd be there.

Got to say I was pretty excited to have a proper look around one, and even more interested once I'd had a proper good look around, they look like a great deal of thought has gone into the build, It was actually smaller than I was expecting, it very much being the dimensions of a 110, I dislike big bulky cars, which I feel all Land Rovers are these days . - having said that the interior was pretty spacious.

It just feel well built, doors, body lines etc. My first thought was it is like a Modern take on a LR Def 110 a cross between a Gwagon and a Original Defender - I guess thats pretty much what the Design Brief was.

If it drives anywhere near as good as it looks then it wont be disappointing. 

I doubt I'll be getting a Mk1, but depending on the energy/oil&gas market and transition to alternative fuel sources and engines, I reckon I might be ready for one when they do a Hydrogen fuel cell version!

I have a master plan to restore the Camel 110, re-build a Td5 90, sell them all off and I might be able to raise enough to go towards a Grenadier. (I'm saving a 90 chassis, as I reckon I'm going to have a go at doing an electric conversion or a super eco petrol conversion to it at some point).

Grenadier 9/10 for me, looks an awesome proposal.

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10 hours ago, Anderzander said:

Not easy to explain what changed - but something like: whilst it takes obvious styling cues from the Defender, in the flesh it’s clearly a very different vehicle. 

A Gwagen with a Defender body kit should sum it up? Not that that's a bad thing.

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My Brother in Law saw the Grenadier at the Great Yorkshire Show; I saw it last at the Ragley Hall Game Fair. 

Ineos made a conscious decision to market via agricultural shows and game fairs; Ineos own Belstaff and some other outdoor pursuit companies; shooting is high among Sir Jim Radcliffe's pastimes. 

An old mate who is involved in fleet purchasing for the utilities said he was being sounded out for potential purchases, but raw cost is a key driver for them at the moment. If the Grenadier can show an advantage in lifetime costs, then the high initial price against a Japanese/Korean/Chinese/Malaysian doublecab  will matter much less.

Sir Jim is on record saying that the Grenadier will be a "half-price G wagen", so far that is looking close.

Edited by jeremy996
spelling - getting Sir Jim's name right
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  • 5 months later...

Prompted by the main thread on this (seemed the wrong place to add this comment) I thought I would go and take a proper look at the website and have a play with the configurator

First impressions are wow they are expensive so went and compared to the Land Rover Defender build page. The most obvious models to compare are the station wagon '110' models. Looking at the spec of both and engine power etc it looks like the Grenadier is specced about the same as the bottom version Defender with the 250 engine?

I'm not about to buy a new one of either, granted, as I always buy my cars second hand and for cold hard cash but £5k less to buy from a large well known brand vs a total newcomer seems like a brave move to me

image.png.6bd91cdb26bdba316c04209ecf1bb97f.pngimage.png.afe9502a28f636af06e17e2f6f31c771.png

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It's not that easy to compare models, for one thing you will find ordering a low spec Defender rather difficult. All Grenadier seats are manual - there are no electric options other than seat heaters.

A base Grenadier 5 seat station wagon is £58,000 before OTR costs and RFL.

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