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UK Government proposals for "Anti-tampering".


Tanuki

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There's currently a consultaqtion by the UK government on proposals which include "anti-tampering" laws which potentially outlaw a whole range of things - to quote:

"a specific offence for supplying, installing and/or advertising, a ‘tampering product’ for a
vehicle or NRMM – this would apply where a principal effect of the product is to bypass,
defeat, reduce the effectiveness of or render inoperative a system, part or component (the
product may be a physical part or component, hardware and/or software)
a specific offence for removing, reducing the effectiveness of, or rendering inoperative a
system, part or component for a vehicle/NRMM and advertising such services
a specific offence for allowing for use or providing a vehicle or NRMM that has had the
operations described in the previous 2 points performed on it
a new power to require economic operators to provide information, where a
service/product they have supplied amounts to or enables ‘tampering’ with a vehicle
or NRMM – this would apply in any of the above senses and include requirements to
provide relevant information on the quantities of products sold or modified"

This is seemingly aimed at stopping people doing chip-tuning, decats, EGR-bypass or similar, but regulatory-overreach could also mean it extends to include things like Megasquirt or changing the final-drive ratio if it could increase emissions.

Motorcyclists are already worried because it would - seemingly - apply to non-road-registered vehicles,

https://www.britishmotorcyclists.co.uk/anti-tampering-threat/

and see

See https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards

for the proposals.
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Didn't read it all but not surprising, they have considered it before on the basis of safety. Following the Diesilgate anti test programs they will be considering the effects of post purchase changes on eco settings and how to combat them is my guess.

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This is already happening in the states, many large fines being handed out for selling (not even using or installing) electronics boxes rather do as described above -the maddest thing is it applies to anything that has ever had a VIN, so all the home built race cars, that never see the road, are still being slammed for it.

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19 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

This is already happening in the states, many large fines being handed out for selling (not even using or installing) electronics boxes rather do as described above -the maddest thing is it applies to anything that has ever had a VIN, so all the home built race cars, that never see the road, are still being slammed for it.

Even race cars have emissions though.

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They can create as many laws as they like, but as there's nobody to enforce, report or prosecute it's a bit pointless.  MoT testers don't have training, authority or support to instigate a prosecution, and I don't imagine a call to the police to report an EGR bypass will get the blue lights switched on.  

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6 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

Yep, but build a car from scratch with no VIN and it is exempt! 🙃

True over here you cannot remove a road registered car from DVLA existence to use for racing as you can no longer put it as scrapped.

Just that our gov does not have jurisdiction to enforce traffic regulations if it is SORN. Not ideal but some exemption.

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Here's the doc as a clicky link:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards/future-of-transport-regulatory-review-modernising-vehicle-standards

Honestly it sounds like they're more concerned about the cyber-security of new autonomous vehicles than anything, plus of course tampering with emissions equipment post-dieselgate which is totally understandable even if some of us may not agree with it. Combustion engines are going to be around for a long time in trucks & agricultural vehicles long after passenger cars move to EV unless there's some miracle breakthrough in batteries.

Laws like this are pretty much never retrospective either - no-one from the government has ever come to take away your old Land Rover or even your old inefficient boiler or fridge by force, because most consumers just move on naturally to the newer cleaner more efficient versions - hell, once it's 40 years old they don't even make you get an MOT so no-one is even ever checking your emissions.

The UK has a fair sized automotive & motorsport industry, as well as classic cars and the growing EV conversion business, so I find it very hard to believe the government would blindly screw all those over especially as many of their party donors will likely have a barn full of classic cars.

If it kills or greatly restricts the industry of EGR deletes and chip-tuning I'm not entirely sure that's so awful, in a few years it will all be applied to EV's where there's no emissions to get worked up about no matter how much you wind up the power so they'll have a harder time coming up with a good reason to restrict it - and a lot of folks may well look to EV conversions for serious power gains as the prices drop. If I fit MSEFI to an older vehicle I more than likely improve its efficiency & emissions, whereas doing it to a modern vehicle is fairly likely to impact one or both of those and put the vehicle outside the legal limits it was built to.

Things I would be concerned about from it are that it could restrict the right/ability to repair (but that's already a problem and not just for vehicles), and as someone else said they pretty much don't enforce anything now so who's going to enforce it in the future?

 

Anyway, here's the important bit - don't whinge about it on here, send them an email!

 

Quote

 

How to respond

The consultation period began on 28 September 2021 and will run until 11:45pm on 22 November 2021. Ensure that your response reaches us before the closing date.

Further copies and alternative copies of this consultation document, such as Braille and audio CD, for example, can be requested at FutureOfTransport@dft.gov.uk.

You may send your consultation response:

Future of Transport Regulatory Review
Department for Transport Zone 1-3, Floor 3
Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
London SW1P 4DR

When responding by email only, state whether you are responding as an individual or representing the views of an organisation. If responding on behalf of a larger organisation, make it clear who the organisation represents and, where applicable, how the views of members were assembled.

If you have any suggestions of others who may wish to be involved in this process, contact us.

 

 

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I agree about the autonomous driving cars, hacking them would not be good. Not that we are ready for them yet, they will be viable only when they account for 100% of vehicles as the manual drivers will be an unknown IMHO.

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18 hours ago, Eightpot said:

They can create as many laws as they like, but as there's nobody to enforce, report or prosecute it's a bit pointless.  MoT testers don't have training, authority or support to instigate a prosecution, and I don't imagine a call to the police to report an EGR bypass will get the blue lights switched on.  

Yes, but you do need an MOT, and removing or bypassing emissions control equipment is already a fail for some vehicles, assuming it's spotted.

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Welcome to our world: over here it has been illegal to make basically any modifications for as long as I can remember. Not that it is stopping us. 😁

18 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

If it kills or greatly restricts the industry of EGR deletes and chip-tuning I'm not entirely sure that's so awful, in a few years it will all be applied to EV's where there's no emissions to get worked up about no matter how much you wind up the power

That is not really correct, every Watt your EV puts out has to be generated first. And more available power almost always means more energy usage, so more electricity needed and that will be far from emission free for the foreseeable future.

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That's true, but there are more opportunities to generate electric without fossil fuels. Leaving the climate change debate to one side, the consumption of hydrocarbons for energy production means they aren't available for other uses. And, as they are a limited resource, that means we, or our descendants, won't have the ability to do what we can.

 

That bothers me.

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I was under the impression that current MOT regulations are already like that. So if you remove a catalyst you fail the MOT basically, among with more stringent regs like reading out the ECU to see if all is as it should.

It is not unreasonable I think, as manufacturers go to great lengths to get a car legit for Euro 6 for example, only for a chip tuner to mess it all up again. It runs better like this, yes but the particle emission is no longer compliant with Euro 6 and does nasty things to peoples lungs. So in effect your car is no longer legal and may be in the wrong tax class because of higher CO2 levels.

I suppose the VW emission scandal has made politicians wiser to this problem as well.

Of course, as with all these things, it is only illegal once proven guilty, which may be where the good intensions stop. As for non registered vehicles, nice to mention it, but does anyone police it?

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As far as I can tell, most MOT stations dont police the obvious ... like illegal number plates ... so I think that even if these regs are brought in, no-one  will enforce them.  

Edited by reb78
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7 hours ago, reb78 said:

As far as I can tell, most MOT stations dont police the obvious ... like illegal number plates ... so I think that even if these regs are brought in, no-one  will enforce them.  

I believe that MOT testers should be policing the visible and measurable items in the test, that is their job. However it has been stated many times on this forum (so I take it as reasonable info) that a tester cannot take things off or open covers to see what is being hidden. IIRC I could not easily see the cats on my D3 but the emissions test would show compliance anyway.

Thus an MOT tester would not know if the vehicle has been tampered with but might suspect it. Only an official investigation post accident or some other legal investigation would do so.

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I tend to lean the other way.

 

MoT testers should do what they are trained to do - inspect under a specific and generally inflexible testing regime, for saftey defects or excessive emmisons levels.

Police should oversee the obeyance of the law - especially in obeyance of those crimes that can lead to injury or death

DVSA - should pull anyone and everyone for the most minor to the most major of things so they can issue fines which essentially pay their wages

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23 hours ago, Gazzar said:

That's true, but there are more opportunities to generate electric without fossil fuels. Leaving the climate change debate to one side, the consumption of hydrocarbons for energy production means they aren't available for other uses. And, as they are a limited resource, that means we, or our descendants, won't have the ability to do what we can.

 

That bothers me.

No argument there. What does bother me is EVs being actively marketed as zero emissions, which is a plain lie. Even if only renewables are used for a particular EV, with the current mix that means more fossil fuels are used for other electricity demands.

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1 minute ago, Escape said:

No argument there. What does bother me is EVs being actively marketed as zero emissions, which is a plain lie. Even if only renewables are used for a particular EV, with the current mix that means more fossil fuels are used for other electricity demands.

Absolutely right. I wish someone qualified would do a proper assessment of the environmental effect of an EV, from the creation of the vehicle (including its batteries and the processes there), across its useable lifespan (to include charging) and including the recycling of the vehicle at end of life and compare the same with an ICE vehicle. I would wager that if you did if for a land rover with a 2-4+ lifespan of a single EV they wont end up that different and the LR might even work out better. Our throwaway society is as much to blame for global warming as the burning of fossil fuels and if we made things to last rather than on the cheap to see out a warranty period we might find we have a significant effect on GHG emissions. 

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2 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

I tend to lean the other way.

 

MoT testers should do what they are trained to do - inspect under a specific and generally inflexible testing regime, for saftey defects or excessive emmisons levels.

Police should oversee the obeyance of the law - especially in obeyance of those crimes that can lead to injury or death

DVSA - should pull anyone and everyone for the most minor to the most major of things so they can issue fines which essentially pay their wages

I agree. 

My post above wasn't knocking MOT testers BTW - I think there should be a better pathway for the policing of these things.

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1 hour ago, reb78 said:

I agree. 

My post above wasn't knocking MOT testers BTW - I think there should be a better pathway for the policing of these things.

The Pathway is meant to tbe the DVSA - but oddly enough they are massively understaffed (like every other government agency or organisation) due to spending cuts. Same old, same old

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20 hours ago, reb78 said:

As far as I can tell, most MOT stations dont police the obvious ... like illegal number plates ... so I think that even if these regs are brought in, no-one  will enforce them.  

I'm curious to know what makes you think that we don't.

If it's the amount of incorrectly spaced plates you see about, well a lot will be on vehicles under three years old so wont have had an MOT.

Then when I do fail a vehicle on plates, after the normal round of excuses, they tell you the correctly spaced plates are in the boot, and could we fit them.

Next time we see the car the old plates are back on, I've been failing the same vehicles for years like this.

Also, it's possible to have a plate that's "illegal" as in it doesn't meet C & U reg's but still passes the MOT, yeah I know, go figure.

10 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

MoT testers should do what they are trained to do - inspect under a specific and generally inflexible testing regime, for saftey defects or excessive emmisons levels.

That's exactly what we do, and if a manufacturers emissions equipment has been removed or bypassed and we can see it has, it fails.

I'm sure of the point you were making there.

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51 minutes ago, pat_pending said:

I'm curious to know what makes you think that we don't.

If it's the amount of incorrectly spaced plates you see about, well a lot will be on vehicles under three years old so wont have had an MOT.

Then when I do fail a vehicle on plates, after the normal round of excuses, they tell you the correctly spaced plates are in the boot, and could we fit them.

Next time we see the car the old plates are back on, I've been failing the same vehicles for years like this.

Also, it's possible to have a plate that's "illegal" as in it doesn't meet C & U reg's but still passes the MOT, yeah I know, go figure.

 

I guess that was the assumption I was making, so apologies. I am always surprised more dont get a tug from the police to be honest - there are so many around with hard to read number plates and its such an overt thing I just wonder how so many get away with it!

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