JLR Q2 Losses

[Anderzander]

This short article has some interesting info in it:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/land-rover/356450/jaguar-land-rover-files-ps302-million-loss-q2-2021

It includes losses due to a world wide semi conductor shortage 

An all Electric RR in 2024

The new Defender being their main seller

Plus they have been buying Emissions credits from Tesla ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jeremy996]

A lot of manufacturers have been buying emissions credits from Tesla; Stellantis paid US$2.4Billion for credit for 2019-20. Sometimes it is cheaper to pay than fix the problem.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/05/tesla-loses-huge-customer-for-emissions-credits-in-europe-and-the-us/

[Snagger]

Who’d have thought that a low tech, minimal electronics vehicle may have been a good product to be selling? 🙄

[reb78]

Makes you wonder when Tesla will end up being a dirty company. There vehicles are only zero emission at the point of use so its a curious thing as to how all this is calculated and really just a big con...

[Snagger]

35 minutes ago, reb78 said:

Makes you wonder when Tesla will end up being a dirty company. There vehicles are only zero emission at the point of use so its a curious thing as to how all this is calculated and really just a big con...

Quite.  The levels of money involved in climate related business and politics, carbon points trading especially, makes the whole issue riddled with corruption.

[sean f]

I wonder now much of Tesla's business case relies on getting large payments from other manufactures for credits like this, doubt anyone will find out "real" numbers as they will get buried in corporate financing and accounting (that's not a dig at Tesla all large companies arrange there accounts to show what they want to show to some extent). Must add quite bit to there bottom line, are they viable with out it, what would the cars cost with with this or tax subsidies?.

I have always assumed (and most articles agree) that the manufacturing emissions for an electric vehicle would be considerable higher than than for a standard petrol or diesel vehicle, basic shell / trim etc will be largely the same but electric motors and batteries use a lot more rare (and often difficult to handle at end of life) materials than a standard alloy / iron block, which is largely recyclable.

Would be interesting to see numbers for total life C0 emission for equivalent vehicles say tesla verus Ford Mondeo from raw material to final end of life disposal with say a 15 year 200,000 mile life which includes electric generation using current average UK emissions per unit (with what ever the current average mix between wind/solar/gas/nuclear etc is), any spares repairs (servicing oil use etc against battery reconditioning / replacement) trouble is I expect any answer would end up so fudged by which ever side created it it would be meaningless.

[bishbosh]

I read somewhere recently that 60-70k miles is the break even point. Can’t remember where though.

[Anderzander]

I think on the recycling Tesla are on it - they have tons of R&D going into the recycling of batteries.

Its the mining with child labour in Africa that seems to be making them dirty at the moment.

[missingsid]

2 hours ago, sean f said:

I wonder now much of Tesla's business case relies on getting large payments from other manufactures for credits like this, doubt anyone will find out "real" numbers as they will get buried in corporate financing and accounting (that's not a dig at Tesla all large companies arrange there accounts to show what they want to show to some extent). Must add quite bit to there bottom line, are they viable with out it, what would the cars cost with with this or tax subsidies?.

I have always assumed (and most articles agree) that the manufacturing emissions for an electric vehicle would be considerable higher than than for a standard petrol or diesel vehicle, basic shell / trim etc will be largely the same but electric motors and batteries use a lot more rare (and often difficult to handle at end of life) materials than a standard alloy / iron block, which is largely recyclable.

Would be interesting to see numbers for total life C0 emission for equivalent vehicles say tesla verus Ford Mondeo from raw material to final end of life disposal with say a 15 year 200,000 mile life which includes electric generation using current average UK emissions per unit (with what ever the current average mix between wind/solar/gas/nuclear etc is), any spares repairs (servicing oil use etc against battery reconditioning / replacement) trouble is I expect any answer would end up so fudged by which ever side created it it would be meaningless.

There was a top 40 (or 70 cant remember) list of worst CO2 offendets based on cradle to the grave a few years ago.

Toyota Prius was worse than a Jeep Wrangler.

 

[smallfry]

1 hour ago, Anderzander said:

I think on the recycling Tesla are on it - they have tons of R&D going into the recycling of batteries.

Its the mining with child labour in Africa that seems to be making them dirty at the moment.

Talking of which, did anyone see that programme on last week, titled "Electric cars, winners and losers" (I think) Showing the mining in Africa and the people involved ? I cannot see how anyone who is all for electric vehicles justify or be comfortable with that.

[reb78]

58 minutes ago, smallfry said:

Talking of which, did anyone see that programme on last week, titled "Electric cars, winners and losers" (I think) Showing the mining in Africa and the people involved ? I cannot see how anyone who is all for electric vehicles justify or be comfortable with that.

NIBYism?? I agree though.

[Anderzander]

I didn’t see it - I have read something about it though.

In no way endorsing it - but ‘ethical sourcing’, as it’s termed in Procurement, is more complex than it initially appears.

Initially companies that took on a conscience around where they spent their money just withdrew from exploitative industries - but that proved to have unforeseen negative effects. For example some child labour is the only income into large extended families, and cutting that off was catastrophic.

So the whole thing moved into a different approach - of paying more, but not so much to unbalance the local dynamics, but most importantly demanding better conditions and even providing education and support into those families.

[jeremy996]

Those decrying the electric car as a gross polluter, citing cobalt and lithium sourcing need to remember that the petrochemical industry is no innocent when it comes to exploiting local labour and despoiling the environment. The fact that they have been doing it for longer seems to normalise the process.

No industrialisation is without exploitation and despoilment; the "dark, satanic mills" may be an old meme in the UK, but in many cases we have just exported the more problematic processes.

[reb78]

38 minutes ago, jeremy996 said:

Those decrying the electric car as a gross polluter, citing cobalt and lithium sourcing need to remember that the petrochemical industry is no innocent when it comes to exploiting local labour and despoiling the environment. 

Neither are great but those covering up the failings of EVs and simply being dishonest about their real environmental impact are doing nothing more that creating a future problem like we saw with the big push for diesels 20 years ago. Potentially worse, they are stifling investment and development of other greener technologies by proclaiming they have the answer when, in reality, they probably do not.

Edited December 8, 2021 by reb78

[jeremy996]

3 hours ago, reb78 said:

Neither are great but those covering up the failings of EVs and simply being dishonest about their real environmental impact are doing nothing more that creating a future problem like we saw with the big push for diesels 20 years ago. Potentially worse, they are stifling investment and development of other greener technologies by proclaiming they have the answer when, in reality, they probably do not.

Nothing major to disagree with there but there is some heavy money, (via US based lobby companies funded by petrochemicals), being used to decry the electric car. Politicians are not helping as their fundamental lack of scientific knowledge makes them prey for every media savvy quack out there.

In pure energy terms a BEV is massively more efficient at moving from A to B than any ICE vehicle and considerably more efficient than a H2 powered vehicle, (either ICE or fuel cell BEV). As a general statement, technical sophistication moves from a large scale inefficient systems, think steam engines, line shafting and looms, to smaller scale, highly efficient, distributed systems, like the domestic electric drill, so a BEV is likely to be on the right side of history. Massively more efficient than a BEV private car would be an electrically driven mass-transit system, but there are social pressures in the way there.

[sean f]

4 hours ago, jeremy996 said:

Nothing major to disagree with there but there is some heavy money, (via US based lobby companies funded by petrochemicals), being used to decry the electric car. Politicians are not helping as their fundamental lack of scientific knowledge makes them prey for every media savvy quack out there.

In pure energy terms a BEV is massively more efficient at moving from A to B than any ICE vehicle and considerably more efficient than a H2 powered vehicle, (either ICE or fuel cell BEV). As a general statement, technical sophistication moves from a large scale inefficient systems, think steam engines, line shafting and looms, to smaller scale, highly efficient, distributed systems, like the domestic electric drill, so a BEV is likely to be on the right side of history. Massively more efficient than a BEV private car would be an electrically driven mass-transit system, but there are social pressures in the way there.

At the moment to get a significant change to greener transport is going to require some sort of technological break through, options at the moment with CURRENT technology just aren't working, they are though getting better. Battery technology has moved on a lot from the days of electric milk floats, just look at mobile phone batteries. I have no idea where or when the next break through will come (if I did I would be putting money in stocks and cashing in!). I personally think H2 has a lot of potential but it still needs more development to make it more main stream.

Different technologies have different plus's and negatives, various bodies around the world have vested interests in certain things and will put money into promoting them and dumping on others, the current push is for electric vehicles with people in power pushing the positives and ignoring the negatives, all technologies have some negatives.

The lack of knowledge amongst politicians (and some of various companies own spokespeople) can be unbelievable. I have worked in the oil industry for over 25 years the pure garbage that was spouted about fracking was incredible, there are serious issues about it but not the ones various campaigners were quoting, just about any one in the industry could disprove most of the campaigners claims but equally I could have rubbished the claims from some of the pro spokes people. Just as a rider I don't think it will ever be viable in the UK for various economic reason. 

Sadly many politician around the world will back a certain technology or policy because it gets them votes as it is perceived as good and they need to be seen to do something even if the reality is its never going to achieve what they say and all the evidence actually says a different approach is better or at least more realistic (often in terms of time spans to achieve things).

[bishbosh]

For me, putting the sustainability issues to one side for a second, there is also the issue that when an EV becomes affordable to me it will be several years old and at the speed the EV technology is moving it will be horribly out of date, without even mentioning the questionable longevity of the (very expensive) battery pack. So I can see there being a very limited second hand market for EV's until the technology development has plateaued somewhat.

 

[Snagger]

True enough, but the technology will still be effective.  Ageing , but not obsolete.  The bigger concern when buying used EVs, as is the case now, is the condition of the batteries - if they have been abused by being frequently fully charged, fully discharged, overheated or charged when in sub-zero conditions, then their capacity is severely reduced.  I think most vehicles BMS will display the reduced capacity, but there are probably hacks for conmen to show higher capacity, akin to winding back an odometer.

[missingsid]

Simplistic uneducated  view but they will be obsolete as well. Until charging technology also reaches a  plateau, the oldest  charging systems will disappear. I have a number of universal chargers for laptops etc. each has a min of 6 up to 10 different adapters. Even though EV connectors are common the charging technologys have moved on. Original EV charging took hours, now it can take minutes, why would a roadside charging company continue to support a slow charge system when a fast charge system can have the same revenue per customer but many times more customers per day.

[Snagger]

A lot of the charging system is the BMS fitted to the vehicle.  The charger just has to deliver the correct bolts and adequate current.  As you said, the connectors have been legally standardised in the EU, and the UK was still in at that point, so we won’t have the same problems as in the US (the EU has finally ordered Apple to use the USB-C connectors for devices sold in the EU, so they’re doing something useful about the problem you and so many had!).

Increasing the output of chargers for newer tech batteries that can charge in minute instead of hours, like solid state batteries are being touted as, would need enormous changes to the power infrastructure - not only the power stations having to handle enormous peak loads as people charge their cars around the times of the rush hour, but also the grid and road cabling, none of which will be up to the task.  I suspect it’ll be decades before anywhere has the infrastructure to support widespread ultra fast chargers; look at how slow the rollout of high speed interned, 5G and so on are in most of the world.

[Peaklander]

8 hours ago, Snagger said:

the EU has finally ordered Apple to use the USB-C connectors for devices sold in the EU

It's not yet a directive, just a proposal.

[Snagger]

I must have misread the news papers.  Still, the car charger system was harmonised by law, so until there is compelling reason to change it, new models will have the same as “current” models.  It’s only some of the first generation that you have to be careful about, checking whether they have Type 1, 2 or CHADEMO connectors.

[missingsid]

Thanks for the info, it doesn't sound like a national solution any time soon.

[Gazzar]

The more I think about it the more I think the solution will be a hydrogen and battery solution.

Hydrogen for the serious stuff, plant, trucks and high mileage cars. Battery for most else.

All, eventually, nuclear or wind powered.

[Snagger]

I think so too, Gary.  Still, there are interesting things happening.  A US startup is making commercial pickup EVs of the Ford 150 and 250 size for sale next year, they say, and has developed cubic cells that have slight less energy density than the cells in Teslas, but will have a huge amount more energy density than the Tesla battery pack because of better use of volume, and the thermal issues are better dealt with by the cubic cells having full contact on their tops and bottoms with cell-width conducting rails that reduce electrical resistance and also act as thermal regulators.  They can charge a pack for 500mile range in 15 mins from zero to 100%, if you can find a charger powerful enough.  The trouble is the chargers will need liquid cooling of the wiring and connector.  The company is called Atlis.  
 

An interesting side point is that they have independent steering on each wheel, primarily so that they can use rear wheel steer to increase manoeuvrability, but they are looking at crabbing and pivot turn capability (on tarmac) and also using the system for dynamic stability control, like dealing with trailers that misbehave.  Sounds awfully complex and expensive, but clever if it works.