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Anyone here a member of GLASS?


pat_pending

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I'm looking for up to date info' for some route planning and Trailwise2 looks like it might be useful.

The last time I was a member it all felt a bit stale and there was little activity on their forum.

I was probably one of the first members when they started but I let my membership lapse about 10-15 years ago.

I've been greenlaning since the mid 80s, used to spend nearly every other weekend away driving all over the country.

What with work, family and other hobbies I only get out about half a dozen times a year now, and nearly always to the same areas, although I normally find a few lanes we've not done before.

We have a traditional drive on new years day, but this year I've struggled to find anything fresh.

I have piles of marked up OS maps, but due to reclassifications etc most are out of date, I also have a different moral stance on which lanes are suitable to drive now.

A couple of exploratory trips in the past have led to wasted time with TROs and physically impossible lanes.

So, if you are a member, is it worth it and how good is TW2?

I was a member of the TRF and they were brilliant,  but I don't ride anymore so that seems a bit like cheating to join them again.

Ta.

 

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Yes, I am a current member, and have been for some years. Although I have supported them by assisting to organise submissions to local Public Inquiries I have always declined to join the officials in any sort of recognised capacity, so this is written mainly from knowledge gained as an individual member.

Although the TRF were invited to join into the development of Trailwise, they declined. GLASS therefore went ahead on their own, paying professionals to create the working database and interface, while relying on member reports to provide the essential data.

Trailwise became popular, GLASS has put more investment into it to create TW2, and it is probably the biggest single driver in terms of increased membership, and therefore income.
This in turn has allowed GLASS to take on more projects in terms of battling the naysayers and offering practical support to those Highway Authorities who recognise they can benefit from specialist assistance.

The AGM was held in December 2021, so I feel I can quote an element of the Report to Members made at that AGM, feeling it is, or will be soon, in the Public domain.

Since 2019, due to the unprecedented increase in membership and remit of the Green Lane Association, internal focus has shifted to the structure of the organisation. Setting the business on the right track to be stable and fit for purpose going forward has become more important than ever.
In 2021 we have taken on more legal cases than ever before. Currently we are working on ten live section 56 actions, with many more ready to go when funds and officers time allow.
The most important aspects of our work are time dependant and require significant knowledge and experience of rights of way law to keep the authorities on their toes and the momentum going. Without dedicated staff and the ability to act quickly cases were at risk of falling by the wayside, so this year we took the bold decision to up scale the organisation and employ two staff on PAYE. Already this has increased productivity exponentially as those staff are confident to carry out their duties on a daily basis for the organisation.

Yes I do think membership is worth it, and while TW2 can never be perfect (as reports of lane use are by ordinary members, even if vetting is by Officers of GLASS) TW2 is vastly better than anything that went before.

I hope this helps, David.

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Thank you David, that's very interesting.

 

4 minutes ago, Anderzander said:

Interested in what your different moral stance is now if you’d share it ?

Well years ago I'd happily squeeze my old series or hybrid down narrow overgrown lanes.

Churned up rutted muddy lanes, great fun, and an excuse to get the winch going.

Don't get me wrong, I was never a hooligan mud plugger, but a challenge was challenge.

Now, I see how Land Rover size vehicles can be intimidating on narrow lanes and the damage that they can cause.

For the most part, I'll only drive wide, decently surfaced lanes, I'll also avoid anything short, near houses or built up areas or anything that just looks "wrong" to drive, even if it's legal.

I think some lanes just aren't suitable for 4x4s and should be left to two wheels only.

I still love a difficult drive, but the only place I'd still be happy doing that would up in the wilds of Wales.

The last time I was there though we kept bumping into convoys of foreign registered vehicles and groups with "tour guides".

It was only the fact that we knew some properly out of the way routes that saved the trip.

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, pat_pending said:

I'm looking for up to date info' for some route planning and Trailwise2 looks like it might be useful.

The last time I was a member it all felt a bit stale and there was little activity on their forum.

I was probably one of the first members when they started but I let my membership lapse about 10-15 years ago.

I've been greenlaning since the mid 80s, used to spend nearly every other weekend away driving all over the country.

What with work, family and other hobbies I only get out about half a dozen times a year now, and nearly always to the same areas, although I normally find a few lanes we've not done before.

We have a traditional drive on new years day, but this year I've struggled to find anything fresh.

I have piles of marked up OS maps, but due to reclassifications etc most are out of date, I also have a different moral stance on which lanes are suitable to drive now.

A couple of exploratory trips in the past have led to wasted time with TROs and physically impossible lanes.

So, if you are a member, is it worth it and how good is TW2?

I was a member of the TRF and they were brilliant,  but I don't ride anymore so that seems a bit like cheating to join them again.

Ta.

 

Somthing I discovered last year was some councils have pretty decent "definitive" maps online and they pretty clearly show what lanes are open and what isn't Newforest county council has a decent one, but I guess is council specific. It's worth a Google.

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49 minutes ago, Maverik said:

Somthing I discovered last year was some councils have pretty decent "definitive" maps online and they pretty clearly show what lanes are open and what isn't Newforest county council has a decent one, but I guess is council specific. It's worth a Google.

Yes, there are some good on line definitive maps.

I used to spend hours and hours researching routes in pre internet days, rather quicker now but still a lot of work.

What I need, and I think GLASS's TW2 has, is all the information in one place.

I want to pick an area, possibly at the junction of several counties, and see quickly if the the lanes in that area are open and what sort of condition they're in.

Currently I'm using a my old paper maps, my Memory map track logs and then Where's the path, aerial view to see how wide/open they are and then using street view to check on TRO signs at entrances.

It's better than nothing, but it's tedious, although less tedious than driving for two hours to find nearly every lane has a TRO on it.

 

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1 hour ago, pat_pending said:

... I want to pick an area, possibly at the junction of several counties, and see quickly if the the lanes in that area are open and what sort of condition they're in. ...

Pick a nearby town or village, recognised by OS, and enter that in TW2 as a Search term. Hitchin returns two alternatives, Hitchin and Hitchin Hill. The map will centre on which one you choose. Using the 'on map' controls zoom out to see those routes in the vicinity, but do recognise that there is a choice of 2 route designations, BOAT and UCR. You need to make that choice. The highway authority can also be displayed, as a clue to which online definitive map you might want to look at, but these maps do not form part of the TW2 database. You can select both route designations at the same time

At the appropriate zoom level some routes have a Yellow warning triangle. Clicking on any route brings up the Details page which contains user comments. In the basic Hitchin area, picking one at random (TL1628-02), the Restriction Detail is 'Likely of no interest - See comments against lane', the comment says 'Paved road with regular passing points, fairly high traffic, locals use as a rat run it seems', which is reasonable guidance.

Users can choose one of various background maps as a Base Layer.

Last point, if puzzled by anything, read the FAQs.
These are developing all the time, and are biassed towards giving information that helps users. Making FAQ answers effective saves the TW support team being bombarded by repeated questions. The support team are volunteers, not employees.

Note that any route designations that you may have on previous maps may well have altered. TL1628 is obviously an OS two letter four figure Grid reference, so a one kilometre square. The -02 refers to the actual route within that square.
In previous examples a route might be split to reflect any split in HA numbering.
In TW2, if two routes are normally driven together only one TW designation will be applied, thus reflecting practical use.

Edited to add in a snippet I had forgotten about, the downside of continuous improvement 🙂

Under Mapping Tools we are informed that : You can view your GPX routes by simply dragging your GPX file onto the map.
Included because GPX routes might just have been part of your most recent route planning.

Regards.
 

Edited by David Sparkes
Add GPX information.
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I would recommend it, it does make exploring easier and saves a lot of turning back as you avoid lanes which are to narrow for 4x4 or are blocked. Also more up to date info on tro and vro.

it has definitely made plotting trips easier for me as can read comments and see if it is likely to be suitable or if it needs walking 1st

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So today we decided to drive a couple lanes across Kings forest south of Thetford, on our way to Norfolk.

I've honestly never seen so many people out greenlaning, several groups of six, a group of nine and one group of at least fifteen, then a couple of bikers that rode past clear signage straight down a seasonally TROed route.

Everyone had driven through the worst of the mud, even when it could be avoided.

T. W. A. T. S. the lot of them.

I expect most of those lanes will be shut next year.

 

 

 

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With all the political problems within glass over the last few years, many of the 'old hands' have left (me included). Trailwise 2 is good - but severley limited in reliability, because it depends on constant information being fed in. This doesn't happen. Although, to be fair, the same problem exists with ATUK.

ATUK are stronger on the East Coast and South East. The South West is mostly independant, although Jim Hamcock is still Cornwall and Devon Rep, with Charlie Moore covering Somerset

Probably the best way to get accurate information is to speak to the Glass Reps, present and past, then have a chat with ATUK

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On 1/1/2022 at 7:37 PM, pat_pending said:

So today we decided to drive a couple lanes across Kings forest south of Thetford, on our way to Norfolk.

I've honestly never seen so many people out greenlaning, several groups of six, a group of nine and one group of at least fifteen, then a couple of bikers that rode past clear signage straight down a seasonally TROed route.

Everyone had driven through the worst of the mud, even when it could be avoided.

T. W. A. T. S. the lot of them.

I expect most of those lanes will be shut next year.

 

 

 

Unfortunately it’s been like this for a while, and has become increasingly worse since the pandemic started with lots of new people doing it for the first time and going off piste, or just using any forestry track under the assumption that if it’s displayed on Google maps it must be ok 🙄 . A number of those routes you drove, were TRO’d last year due to damage and the same is likely to happen again. 
 

I’ve personally experienced bikers even using the footpath sections of the Peddars way. I had the same response that Google said it was ok, and they didn’t even know what a definitive map was. One even pointed out the cycle way sign on a restricted byway section and said that because of that it must be ok.

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16 minutes ago, SteveG said:

Unfortunately it’s been like this for a while, and has become increasingly worse since the pandemic started with lots of new people doing it for the first time and going off piste, or just using any forestry track under the assumption that if it’s displayed on Google maps it must be ok 🙄 . A number of those routes you drove, were TRO’d last year due to damage and the same is likely to happen again. 
 

I’ve personally experienced bikers even using the footpath sections of the Peddars way. I had the same response that Google said it was ok, and they didn’t even know what a definitive map was. One even pointed out the cycle way sign on a restricted byway section and said that because of that it must be ok.

That is annoying, always a few that spoil it for the many. I drove all of Peddars way that was not on a TRO last year in late May and didn't see anyone. It was mostly dry with some puddles but very little in the way of mud and ruts

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There was a meet up on Salisbury Plain, over Christmas, organised by the bolt on parts and clothing compant GRITT. They took money for the event, some of which went to VIA (Veterens In Action). Over 100 vehicles turned up. Most out of Greater London, in shiny blinged up motors with big gnarly tyres. They trashed a carpark, then split into 5 vehicle groups to drive anything and everything.

Running a business within the SPTA is illegal

MoD bylaws state no more than 4 vehiles to a route

MoD bylaws request using only sustainable lanes during prolonged wet weather

MoD bylaws forbid the use of vehicles on Ancient Monuments

Mod Bylaws forbid the use of 'off piste' areas...

Mod Plod and The Range Wardens nicked a few, issued a few tickets and the odd Sction 59.

All put together on Facebook and Insta

Every easy to find lane , on the plain is trashed

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That all makes for sad reading.

TBH I've considered packing it in altogether.

I'll update my maps with TW2 and give it a year, but I don't hold out much hope.

Last time I was on the plain, we passed two groups, all the vehicles were covered in mud and I mean covered, right across the roofs all down the sides.

It was the same at Thetford, you don't get that muddy just driving.

We only did Thetford as we were passing, I drove it all two years ago in my bog standard Freelander.

I think there are many ways to deal with this, and I'd rather hoped the GLASS forum would be alive with discussion, alas not.

xx thousand members and less than half a dozen on the forum... That's telling in itself.

I've about a hundred marked up OS maps from all round the country dating back over 35 years, I'll bet at least half the routes marked are no longer legal and most of the others unsustainable. 

It's all rather depressing.

 

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50 minutes ago, pat_pending said:

 

I've about a hundred marked up OS maps from all round the country dating back over 35 years, I'll bet at least half the routes marked are no longer legal and most of the others unsustainable. 

It's all rather depressing.

 

You are not alone , I have a similar archive and am also deeply disheartened by the abuse of legit lanes and also off piste activity . I really enjoy quiet laning and treading lightly but I fear the opportunity to be able to is going to disappear . 

Kings and Thetford forest are abused day and night here in the east and the beaches and dunes are suffering too , particularly quad bikes in most areas 

Steve

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It seems somewhat cliched to say 'times change', but they always do, from goods carried by back pack (pedlars), by mule, horse and cart then car / van / lorry. From footpath, bridleway, cart track, turnpike, then 'road', with surfaces changing from 'natural' to stoned, tarmac, etc.

We have to change also, from regarding other green lane users as colleagues / fellow travellers, to recognising we do not share the same views about social and anti-social behaviour.
We should not be so reluctant to call out anti-social behaviour, or just leave it to the anti-motorists.

Basically I will repeat the advice given by anti-motorist groups to their members on how to deal with motorised users abusing bridleways etc.
The Police will be doing any prosecuting, and they need evidence. While avoiding obvious confrontation this means images from still cameras or video (dash-cam) footage.
Obviously registration numbers seem the clearest option, but, certainly in the case of motorcyclists, 'dress' is worthwhile to build a case, as vehicle colour scheme (stickers), outer clothing, and helmets are often re-used.
I'm most familiar with Derbyshire, and their Rural Crime Team (RCT) will certainly use this information.
Be aware of two things, one shot is rarely fatal, but each shot builds a picture until a tipping point is reached, so do not despair if no action is taken immediately, but DO keep contributing evidence; you don't know what other information the Police already have, or will collect 'next week'.

If contributing Dash-cam footage, be aware that someone may view everything on the memory store, including excessive speed etc, so do not shoot yourself in the foot.
You cannot be hypocritical and complain about people breaking laws you do like, while expecting your own illegal actions to be 'excused'.

Nationally, I understand more and more Police forces will accept reports via dash-cams, some even have specific email addresses for such contributions.

The other contribution to the battle is Section 59 orders. These apply to BOTH the driver and the vehicle independently, so if the driver is caught a second time, but driving a different vehicle, the order will be effective and the second vehicle taken away and crushed.
Similarly, if the original vehicle is seen a second time, but with a different driver, the vehicle will be taken away and crushed.
Currently there is no appeal against a Section 59 notice (I seem to recall a recent article, perhaps in the GLASS magazine, covering this point).

Be squeaky clean when driving your 4x4, or powered 2 wheeler, or lose the moral high ground. The antis are after everyone, not just the 'group of 15'.

The cache of marked up maps is not just a social history, but also a sound basis to create a new record, whether on modern paper maps or a GPX record, to be used on whichever electronic mapping system you care to use. Databases such as TW2 (the only one I'm familiar with) provide an expedient way to do this update / conversion.

If you do decide to give up green-laning, so be it, but I'd encourage anyone to think positively about the enjoyment you have had, and shared with others.

Regarding Salisbury Plain, an area I have no experience of, be aware that GLASS has, for come years, an ongoing project to work with the Wardens of that area to ensure clear signage.

Regards.

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19 hours ago, pat_pending said:

That all makes for sad reading.

TBH I've considered packing it in altogether.

I'll update my maps with TW2 and give it a year, but I don't hold out much hope.

Last time I was on the plain, we passed two groups, all the vehicles were covered in mud and I mean covered, right across the roofs all down the sides.

It was the same at Thetford, you don't get that muddy just driving.

We only did Thetford as we were passing, I drove it all two years ago in my bog standard Freelander.

I think there are many ways to deal with this, and I'd rather hoped the GLASS forum would be alive with discussion, alas not.

xx thousand members and less than half a dozen on the forum... That's telling in itself.

I've about a hundred marked up OS maps from all round the country dating back over 35 years, I'll bet at least half the routes marked are no longer legal and most of the others unsustainable. 

It's all rather depressing.

 

I consdiered packing it in. After I resigned from my positions within GLASS. I stayed a member for a few months then didn't bother to renew. I tried ATUK, became an ambassador for Somerset and Devon. That lasted a year. My Heart simply isn't in it. I'm still chair of the Somerset LAF (the only vehicle representative Chair for any LAF in England....woohoo), but I shan't stand again when my present term is up. I go laning occasionally. Mainly in Dorset. I stay away for the popular places. The whole Glass politics thing killed it for me, although the icing on the cake is, without doubt, the new wave of wuckfits

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This is a 'lane' near us, called Moscar Cross Road, right on the border of Sheffield and Derbyshire. It is a grass slope in the summer, usually with plenty of ruts but still gets driven in winter, even after copious rainfall, as we have had.

The photo of the vehicle recovery shows the soup in the middle which is a liquid mix of mud and water. Vehicles have been attempting to drive it in recent days and at night too.

 

IMG_5299.JPG

IMG_5298.JPG

IMG_6601.thumb.JPG.98f62a170f2d020e1bb2cc86299301fe.JPG

Edited by Peaklander
Added a pic
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If I'm honest I think the decline has been going on for some time.

I remember one trip to wales, probably mid/late 90s, we'd arrived at the start of a very out of the way route (so we thought), that we'd travelled on previous occasions.

Each time we visited there was little sign anyone else had driven it.

This time we could see a wide scar of churned up peat across the hillside.

I later found out there had been a couple of lads in Unimogs leading paying groups about the area.

At least I can say I've driven some extremely technical routes when very few people knew of their existence, most of which are no longer open and probably never will be.

Has it just become too easy? When it took many hours of research and a particularly hardy soul to drive 200+ miles in a series on SATs, it limited who would bother.

Now it's all on line and civilised 4x4s are readily available.

It also seems there's more relevant discussion in this one thread than the whole of the GLASS forum.

 

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25 minutes ago, pat_pending said:

... It also seems there's more relevant discussion in this one thread than the whole of the GLASS forum.

That probably reflects the level of readership of both forums.

The GLASS forum  has just been restarted; this was around the end of November 2021. Members had to re-login as new Forum members, but using their existing GLASS ID.

As I'm not 'GLASS Management' I don't have a clear handle on the background to this, although I do know I had not been a regular user.

Regards.

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The Trailwise ID of Moscar Cross Road is SK2288-02 , which gives the 1km square the route is in.

The most recent comments reflect what the pictures show.
Older comments show conditions have been variable for some time (years).
"Driven 01/Jun/2019 uphill in Panda 4x4, dry conditions, ruts easily straddled. Good views."
6 months earlier:
"27.01.2019. Group of 2 Nissan X-trails. Approached from bottom of hill, far too wet and muddy for our road tyres to get any purchase at all. Had to give up.".

I don't have much TRO history, in April / May 2013 Sheffield Highway Authority closed the route for repair, but this was only 2 weeks.

Regards.

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This isn't a newly abused track as for many years it has been damaged through the winter. Each summer Sheffield City council have levelled the surface with heavy machinery, only for the process to be repeated the following year. In places this winter, the tracks have become very deeply rutted and a volcano-like mudflow has swept down onto the tarmac road below.

That route is used by walkers and cyclists but not at the moment.

The quotation below that @David Sparkes referenced, kind of sums it up, they had a go but gave up...

 

27 minutes ago, David Sparkes said:

far too wet and muddy for our road tyres to get any purchase at all. Had to give up.

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