Jump to content

Roamerdrive (Defender) noise


Recommended Posts

I had two sessions in which I tried to re-fit the three shifting plates and am happy to report that they are in place.

The first part of the work at the rear case was to insert the sun shaft to the case, with the synchromesh mechanism already assembled on it but include the selector fork (on its operating rod). I was so focused on getting the assembly fully in the housing that I forgot to include the selector fork but more importantly, in ensuring it was home, I shocked it enough to move the synchro hub resulting in the forward circular spring and the three shifting plates falling out.

To get to this point the casing had been warmed in the Aga (100 degree C / 212 F oven) and the assembly was in the freezer.

IMG_8084.thumb.jpeg.5dd65431f06eb37f3fbbf4699fc39d33.jpeg

 

IMG_8085.thumb.jpeg.de3deab61e3f259d6ea69e1727222927.jpeg

 

IMG_5426.thumb.jpeg.ffb6a0fe12c220baa88c07c167a2dbe7.jpeg

 

I probably didn't heat the case enough, as the 6205 bearing didn't fall into it's place in the housing and also I had to be sure it was in the correct orientation so that the three dowels around it also lined-up with their holes.

I needed to pull it home by sequentially tightening the six hex socket screws at the back. It was difficult to decide when that was done but using the wire pick I think I could feel the inner end of the casing through-holes and when there was no gap to the assembly. I used some Loctite 270 (green) on the screws by removing one at a time and refitted them.

Once I was past that point of no return, I turned it over and saw the slippers on the bench. Normally there would have been wailing and gnashing of teeth at that point but I remembered that I had a grubby copy of a guide, written by Global Roamer, on how to replace them. It seems that they fall out on disassembly, so other people have had the same problem.

IMG_8115.thumb.jpeg.9ead20acfd917326b02182181bc87fb2.jpeg

I only have a copy of this document because it happened to be in the box with the other broken unit that Dave Ashcroft sent, in case any parts were useful. So thanks @ashtrans, I didn't tell you that I had taken a copy of it.

First the rear circular spring needs to be rotated so that the curl on the end is a tiny bit to the right of central in the slot and the rear baulk ring slots are also lined-up. This spring is moved with a pair of long nosed pliers, without the synchro hub and selector in place.

IMG_8098.thumb.jpeg.da5a0c38f9d4a0e4b03738c06c835bb6.jpeg

 

Then they can be added, with the selector rod sticking out far enough from the rear to hold the selector in the neutral position. In this photo it needed to go down (rearwards) enough to align with the synchro ring inside it.

IMG_8101.thumb.jpeg.8b323afdc607bd6596dfa57ba50e0c2b.jpeg

 

With the shaft pointing up, I sat the case on the bench with some plastic spacers under the end of the selector rod, holding it just right.

Then, using the grubby guide, I tried to insert a tool made from a hacksaw blade (as per instructions) that pushed the curl of the spring in towards the centre, leaving enough room to push a slipper down the other side of the tool and into the slot, going right through to the rear baulk ring. This method is used for each of the three in turn...

IMG_8102.thumb.jpeg.76ad70d5c8055913fe427f5ef128890b.jpeg

 

I tried this a few dozen times yesterday and then got fed up. I couldn't get the first one home - which turned out to be the hardest because of the bend on the clip which needs to go in the slot of the slipper.

Suddenly my other project, which is replacing some clay drain gulleys on the house, seemed much more interesting and so I happily jumped in there instead.

 

Edited by Peaklander
corrections
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a fantastic resource - and would fully agree that it needs to be archived somewhere.

I have one of these units, fitted new by myself maybe about a year ago. I’m 100% sure I would have followed the instructions to the letter, but I have to say that the photo of the gasket without the hole is making me second-guess myself.

Peaklander - I hope you don’t mind me putting up a couple of questions here as it seems there are two of the world experts on dismantling and rebuilding these units involved in the thread - yourself and Snagger.

Although it won’t have done many miles, perhaps 10k or so, my unit has become pretty noisy on the overrun, though the noise disappears when back under load. Just a whiney bearing-ey noise. I did a longish run yesterday, maybe 230 miles or so, with the unit on and off, and the noise has become pretty apparent. Hence why I searched the forum and found this thread.

I don’t know if I could strip the unit down to this level, despite the pics and explanations, but I’m pretty sure I don’t want to. If I was just looking to replace the key bearings does that involve the full strip down, or more or less everything you’ve done but without dismantling the sun/planet gear assembly? Getting it done professionally is always an option, but if it’s “not designed to be dismantled” then I don’t know how many people would have seen one.

It’s encouraging to read opinions that it’s a robust unit; disappointing to see again the stuff about cheap bearings.

I’ll be removing my front axle at some point in the next 3 or 4 months so that would be a good time to remove the Roamerdrive too and it would be really good to get a better idea of what I’d be facing. If necessary I could remove it sooner than that.

Ta.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's correct, you don't need to disassemble the planetary housing and @Snagger didn't need to. On his unit it was the smallest roller bearing that failed, the one I was just referring to in the post above. That was also the case on the unit of @ashtransbut that one had totally let go and the sun shaft had been flapping around all over.

To replace that bearing you need to split the case, that's all. Don't let the synchro slippers fall out though! As yours is a new unit then I presume you have the modified hub carrier which is supposed to allow better oil flow into that rear bearing.

However, the two bigger roller bearings may have started to fail. Mine certainly had as you saw and heard in my posts and these need the inner and outer shafts splitting - and that is the circlip challenge.

The other source of noise could be the bearing on the gear in front of the unit that is placed in the LT230 PTO hole. That would be easy to check before you split the Roamerdrive and when you remove it, you can spin the shafts and listen to the unit itself.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In session #2 to get these shifting plates (I keep writing slippers) in place, I made an aluminium 'tool' which was less springy than the one made with a hacksaw blade. I thought initially that this was better but it isn't springy, it just bends and also it was too thick. You need the thin steel of the hacksaw blade (as it says in the guide).

The groove is needed to capture the curl on the spring.

IMG_8114.thumb.jpeg.6f1f5533c0610d031f0664941542dff8.jpeg

 

Holding the selector rod in the correct position, which is neutral inside..

IMG_8112.thumb.jpeg.1355ab99031d44af286d3a4f9e28142a.jpeg

 

I got the spring to the right; it moves to the centre when you compress it slightly in the next operation. Then pushed the tool down and towards the middle and there is just room for the shifting plate / slipper to be pushed between tool and hub.

IMG_8103.thumb.jpeg.354fb928ba66650a4413c5e08a230981.jpeg

 

IMG_8104.thumb.jpeg.1f50728786c5c17735c76718abe7a9d9.jpeg

 

Then the other two seemed easy. A key point that I didn't know is that the front spring should also start in the same shifting plate / slipper but run in the other direction. This stops the 'key' shifting plate / slipper from turning.

IMG_8105.thumb.jpeg.9de28851f016cce8aa7ba0514d667d80.jpeg

 

Then I quickly popped on the nice new front-side baulk ring

IMG_8110.thumb.jpeg.81d3a2a2985c996877cb8fec94312b12.jpeg

 

IMG_8111.thumb.jpeg.b77536808344390566f9a3c89881aa68.jpeg

 

Final job here is to secure the selector rod with its detent which goes in the hole with its spring and retainer (no pic).

 

IMG_8106.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Peaklander - I was also looking forward to seeing how you managed to get those slippers in and now I know. Truth be told, I also needed to see what they were - my experience with gears/boxes is not extensive.

I think though that if I was taking the unit off and splitting the casing I'd probably just change all the bearings anyway. Like you've said, confidence is key and I'd like to be happy the thing was properly sorted before embarking on next year's trip.

Strong pants and a disposable set of circlip pliers on order.

Very much looking forward to the rest of this.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2022 at 8:21 PM, Peaklander said:

That's correct, you don't need to disassemble the planetary housing and @Snagger didn't need to. On his unit it was the smallest roller bearing that failed, the one I was just referring to in the post above. That was also the case on the unit of @ashtransbut that one had totally let go and the sun shaft had been flapping around all over.

To replace that bearing you need to split the case, that's all. Don't let the synchro slippers fall out though! As yours is a new unit then I presume you have the modified hub carrier which is supposed to allow better oil flow into that rear bearing.

However, the two bigger roller bearings may have started to fail. Mine certainly had as you saw and heard in my posts and these need the inner and outer shafts splitting - and that is the circlip challenge.

The other source of noise could be the bearing on the gear in front of the unit that is placed in the LT230 PTO hole. That would be easy to check before you split the Roamerdrive and when you remove it, you can spin the shafts and listen to the unit itself.

 

 

Unfortunately, I did need to strip the planetary unit to get the small bearing out.  It may be because mine is the SX rather than DX version, or it maybe because mine is the early model with long casing, but many others have managed without.  In my case, the bearing outside diameter was overlapped by the three planetary gears by about 1mm.

There are numerous other differences between this unit and mine - the synchro unit is just like the SIII 1st/2nd and engaged on a dog tooth ring at the back of the casing.  As memory serves, it doubles as the rear bearing retainer.  That meant I didn’t have nearly the trouble with the synchro detents as shown here, but I too needed to tighten the six thin bolts securing the retainer to draw it and the rear bearing back into the casing because of the interference fit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2022 at 9:47 PM, Northwards said:

Thanks Peaklander - I was also looking forward to seeing how you managed to get those slippers in and now I know. Truth be told, I also needed to see what they were - my experience with gears/boxes is not extensive.

I think though that if I was taking the unit off and splitting the casing I'd probably just change all the bearings anyway. Like you've said, confidence is key and I'd like to be happy the thing was properly sorted before embarking on next year's trip.

Strong pants and a disposable set of circlip pliers on order.

Very much looking forward to the rest of this.

Yep, dismantling the carrier is a sod of a job because of those hard to access circlips, so do it properly to do it once; replace ALL the bearings with top brands.  It made a world of difference to mine.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Snagger - I think this highlights the real value of a good forum though - well explained and illustrated threads which can give anyone following-on the confidence to tackle something tricky.

So for example, if I’d been brave enough to try something like this myself, without any guides or photos, then I might have got to some of the circlips and thought “no, this isn’t meant to happen”. Having seen/heard that it’s possible, even if it’s a bit of a sod, is immensely valuable. 

It is quite disappointing because my unit is so new, but that noise isn’t going to go away by itself. A problem with cheap bearings is that they could be serviceable but noisy for a long time - or collapse tomorrow.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep, good fora like this one are invaluable.  There is a wealth of experience and knowledge on here that has helped me many a time.  The other fora I have been on, not so much.  I have seen a lot of false information and posturing by posters on other fora, which is typical of the internet and I suppose the public at large, but it doesn’t seem to happen here, or very rarely.  That means that the members keep coming back because we know we can trust each other on here.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

The other fora I have been on, not so much.  I have seen a lot of false information and posturing by posters on other fora

Amen to that - a few times I've had a question not answered here and google has led me to another forum and it's felt like paying a visit to a circus - loads of banter, abuse, poor quality answers from folks whose ethos seems to be if you can bodge it up or get away with it, that's plenty good enough and counts as the accepted solution to a problem.

And general car forums are even worse - the extent of most of the pots on those revolve around nothing more technical than which flavour of car shampoo to use or which alloy wheels look best.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

And general car forums are even worse - the extent of most of the pots on those revolve around nothing more technical than which flavour of car shampoo to use or which alloy wheels look best.

Ha, I remember when I first got my Merc, I wanted to hardwire in a dashcam. So I made a post on MBWorld, asking for advice.

The only answer I ever got was "nice car". Apart from that, I think most people clutched their pearls and fainted at the suggestion of doing that to a brand new car.

15 hours ago, Snagger said:

I have seen a lot of false information and posturing by posters on other fora

Reminds me of when I got banned on RR.net for telling the admin to get his head out of his behind :ph34r:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before closing the two parts to make one, the caged bearing for the front end of the sunshaft needs to be located into the front case. This would be a simple drop-in but I found it better to leave the rear part on the bench, with the sun shaft pointing up (and the synchro all ready in neutral) and popped the bearing on there.

Also the front baulk ring needs to sit in the synchro hub.

It would be frustrating to find these on the bench after it's been closed-up but not a show stopper. As it turned out, I have closed and opened several times, not due to forgetfulness but in trying to confirm operation.

IMG_8178.thumb.jpeg.0a3deca179ce4303aaef8e14cd861eed.jpeg

 

... caged bearing shown on the sun shaft and baulk ring in place 

IMG_8179.thumb.jpeg.329e105fdf63988b23e2073246c1cf35.jpeg

 

I got an email back from Ray at Global Roamer, after I had alerted him to finally getting back on this and making progress. I had again sent a link to this forum thread. The reply was full of praise in his succinct style but also he also threw a 'curved ball' in.

Out of the blue he told me...

"that type of shifting plate and spring shown... are standard Land Rover parts (UKC3530L &UKC31L). In recent years after noticing a number of the plates bending and jamming (as they are made of thin bent steel plate) we made an improvement, making our plate out of a solid block of steel and making a slightly longer spring that embraces past the block.

This is a great improvement on the original system that dates back to a 1960s Fiat.  It retrofits to the LR provided synchro hub."

This was a surprise and so I immediately emailed back asking him to confirm that I have the original type, although I knew really...

IMG_8175.thumb.jpeg.b109422465e6b8bf86aa99752e80b8fb.jpeg

 

IMG_8176.thumb.jpeg.8fe940d664d2407737c17c8db5fd0224.jpeg

 

I didn't receive a further reply until very late on Friday and it was Saturday morning before I saw it. It explained that he wasn't aware that my unit has OEM shifter plates and offering to send a set out. I really want to get this unit back on the truck as I have a trip down south very soon, with a couple of motorway hours, so I am intending to 'risk it' with the original design.

So to closing up. Synchro / selector in neutral and front inverted and placed onto the rear, with the large O-ring in place. held with lots of vaseline as it kept springing out. This has to be better than inverting the rear part and risking the shifter plates dropping.

Now it was closed, located with three roll pins, I operated the selector but had to remove the detent (ball) to make it easier. There are two detent positions, engaged (selector 'back') and not engaged (selector forward) but there is a neutral position too without a groove for the ball in the selector rod  

Now I have a dilemma, I cannot replicate 'engaged', meaning that I can't see the output shaft rotating 28% faster than the input.

The method is that when disengaged, the sunshaft is free to rotate and in Global Roamer's own words from their website,

...when the overdrive is not in use, a clutch locks sun gear to the three planet gears (H) and as a result the annulus gear (L) is forced to rotate at the same speed as planet carrier (E) and there is no overdrive effect. Note that in this mode none of the gears is actually working - all the components are rotating at the same speed about the center.

920531503_Image15-10-2022at18_50.jpg.13aa1786a5b579b75337d7eb4627b23f.jpg

This is fine - I can move the input and the output shaft moves too at the same speed.

Now move the selector to the rear and this clamps the sun shaft / gear...

When the overdrive is in use a clutch locks the sun gear (J) to housing (U) and the sun gear can no longer rotate. As planet carrier (E) rotates about sun gear (J), planet gears (H) are forced to rotate about shafts (G) and the effect is to cause annulus gear (L) to rotate 28% faster than planet carrier (E) thus giving an overdrive effect.

However, I cannot see the difference in rotational speed. If I turn the input shaft, the output turns with it and no matter how much effort I put into holding one and turning the other, they appear to be operating at the same speed still.

I think that this must be friction but I am just a little wary of moving it onto the vehicle until I am sure. Deep sigh.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have to laugh because I was stuck, thinking that (impossibly) the unit couldn't be in overdrive, as the output and input shafts were turning together. All thanks to @Snagger who wisely suggested that I mark them both to check. As I was reading his words, I knew what I would see.

Numbers don't lie and as the overdrive ratio is 28%, a small movement of either shaft wouldn't be obvious. The example he gave was a 10 degree movement on the input would multiply up to 12.8 on the output. In other words, hard to see!

So I marked them and this is what happens...

 

So that's all good (but I feel as though I've been a bit of a muppet) and I can confidently refit the overdrive to the LT230. The only remaining task before that is to remove the drive gear from inside the PTO space and carefully drive the inner race off, so it can be pressed onto the overdrive's output gear. That is a new bearing due to the LT230 overhaul a few months ago.

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First job this morning was to remove the old bearing that's been on the input gear since I bought the overdrive. So it was never 'paired' with the outer race that was in the LT230. It was a little bit troublesome and I pulled the roller cage off so I could see better but it finally drifted off without any damage to the gear.

IMG_8215.thumb.jpeg.5ce631e40d226d37643f148fb9f0a4fc.jpeg

 

IMG_8218.thumb.jpeg.592990e1739021aad4e4fa62888433ef.jpeg

 

Then I went underneath to open-up the PTO but this was a struggle as the re-builder at Ashcroft hadn't skimped with the sealant. There's the cover to prise off and then the rear bearing carrier / plate.

WIthout damage the cover came off, finally...

IMG_8220.thumb.jpeg.ed0f194bff714e6e5cc8cd46868c470d.jpeg

 

and then the carrier, to leave the face of the transfer box

IMG_8221.thumb.jpeg.63969fc88c58b0570e23b97d0f99f9f7.jpeg

 

then the gear can be lifted out with a careful twist to disengage it

IMG_8222.thumb.jpeg.e534e91d52c7aa499ee2c9c6bca60171.jpeg

 

The bearing on the left is the one that needs to be transferred to the OD gear and it punched off reasonably easily

Meanwhile the OD gear had been in the freezer and it was there for about 1.5 hrs so nice and cold and the bearing pressed on quite easily using the vice and the old race.

IMG_8223.thumb.jpeg.2589471ff1ed0a2845601f1a0720623f.jpeg

 

It has a new crush washer, with the pointed part oriented towards the OD.

IMG_8224.thumb.jpeg.b0c7a8c018b322720d1c73718989d406.jpeg

 

I found a different gasket in my Roamerdrive bits and bobs and there is no doubt that this has the hole for the oil passage (see earlier posts) and now I am ready to lift the unit.

IMG_8213.thumb.jpeg.fc597bdedb709216856670d94c31ae15.jpeg

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All quite different from the Series version.

I dug out some old photos of stripping mine.  The rear sun shaft bearing failed first, allowing the shaft to move forward, which crushed and skewed the smaller bearing inside the planet carrier.  The rest of the bearings were poor quality, so also got replaced.  The planet gears, carrier and their bearings were fine, but needed removal to replace that sun shaft front bearing, as that has an outer diameter just a little larger than will fit between the planet gears when assembled.  That, like yours, was a pig because it needs a very hard to access circlip removed to slip the carrier and its outer bearing from the output shaft, and then that outer bearing removed from the carrier to remove the bolts that hole the carrier together.  They certainly weren’t built to be easily repaired.

Some of the photos show the damage - the slop on the rear bearing, the skew of the front bearing, a very blurry photo trying to show the damage to the sun shaft bearing surface (which was sleeved) and the edges of its teeth.  It also shows the old and new casing front covers, the new one with the big oil slots, which is very fragile (not the broken locating lugs between the slots) leading me to refit the old type, which I think holds the oil better and certainly locates more securely.

755308E6-56E7-488D-BD04-1FAC6E737129.jpeg

A6BE0410-CDA2-45E7-8B3A-65FC673C3BF1.jpeg

4BAB7CE8-CA07-47D8-AE6C-1390C1DD738A.jpeg

485B6716-B3E4-49DD-AB88-AE15F4085F06.jpeg

68373B90-5553-40CA-8725-A5D4068553FB.jpeg

831B2F3C-B994-42AF-8026-41B0379493DE.jpeg

7D07FABF-4974-45ED-95E4-59FF962BDE7B.jpeg

E5F307AF-0D51-4140-9284-81027C04AE25.jpeg

A724B4E3-6740-4DCC-9B4E-D1293499BCD7.jpeg

26FD2CD0-2128-4EDC-8B06-03ADAE084BAD.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks v much for continuing with the pics and story - as I've said this will be so useful when I get to do this. 

Agree completely that removing the tunnel is a pain. Such a "simple" thing, but so awkward. I have the Wright accoustic matting on the seatbox and even that 5/6mm makes it harder. I have often wondered about the merits / disadvantages of splitting the tunnel down the middle (front to back) so that you could remove each side easier. Obviously you'd need to make up some sort of "joining" or fixing, and even think about soundproofing, but apart from that I can't think of any functional reason why it has to be so 🤬 awkward to remove/fit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somebody makes an aftermarket oddments tray that fits around the rubber gaiter of the Defender sticks, maybe Mudstuff.  That would nicely cover a cut down the centre of the WOR matting.

I cut my WOR mat (Series version) either side of the transmission tunnel.  I get a very neat joint on the left side, but it wants to duck up a bit on the right hand side because of the way the red transfer box lever and gaiter work - the Defender version might join snugly on both sides, but I’d recommend only cutting along the driver’s side as the passenger side and tunnel section would be relatively easy to lift out as one; it’s lifting a complete mat past the pedals and hand brake lever that is awkward.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Snagger - I must have worded that badly. I agree the matting can be a bit of a pig, but I’ve never struggled that much with it, though I do normally resort to removing the handbrake lever!

I was actually talking about cutting the transmission tunnel itself though - this is the thing I find myself having more of a battle with. If it was joined and sealed somehow; and hidden under the matting, I wonder what the downsides might be?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's very very wet today and I have postponed my first drive. I don't want to be lying in a pool of water when checking for leaks. So it will have to wait.

 

Meanwhile I have been thinking about the now 'spare' input gear to the LT230. This no longer has the front bearing cone on it as it has been transferred to the OD input shaft.

On 10/18/2022 at 1:33 PM, Peaklander said:

First job this morning was to remove the old bearing that's been on the input gear since I bought the overdrive

I think I will make-up a retro-fit kit that I can have ready for if I ever have a catastrophic failure of the Roamerdrive. With all my recent efforts I hope I never will. It could be boxed and ready to ship to me wherever I happen to be. That would be the rear carrier and (PTO) cover, plus the bolts and sealant. Also the input gear itself - but it would be no good without the front bearing. So I have bought another, having just destroyed the old one that was on the OD input shaft and which had been made redundant due to the LT230 overhaul / upgrade whilst the OD was off the vehicle! That would have done as a get-me-home.

The part number is FRC5564 I believe, which is a 18790 (cone) and 18720 (cup) and Ashcroft use Timken, so that's what I have bought for £22.68 delivered.

This is the now redundant LT230 input gear (no rust, just shiny oil and dust), which has the same bearing at both ends. Also what would be the complete 'kit' of parts, to which I will add the new bearing and sealant.

IMG_8244.thumb.jpeg.4781ec8e1cfe3531c778ba36c37f92b2.jpeg          IMG_8245.thumb.jpeg.fde7256b8247b9f6be3a7a8757b1a9a8.jpeg

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We use cookies to ensure you get the best experience. By using our website you agree to our Cookie Policy