Maverik Posted May 16, 2022 Author Share Posted May 16, 2022 I just picked up the phone to Turners and Richard is always pretty helpful. He said he'd seen this before on 200's where the belt obviously wasnt happy - as we've suggest on here it said I should have a play about with the FIP mounting or have a fiddle with the tensioner angle - he mentioned a customer ground a bit off the backing plate to change the angle etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted May 16, 2022 Share Posted May 16, 2022 An idea off the top of my head, so could be a load of nonsense... Could it be that either the mounting bracket (part number 5 in the diagram below) that holds the injection pump to the cover plate on the block or indeed something to do with the cover plate (thickness, gaskets, warped?) could be misaligned, out of spec so that it is holding the pump at a slight angle? Not enough to be visually obvious, but enough to cause the problem you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 16, 2022 Author Share Posted May 16, 2022 27 minutes ago, monkie said: An idea off the top of my head, so could be a load of nonsense... Could it be that either the mounting bracket that holds the injection pump to the cover plate on the block or indeed something to do with the cover plate (thickness, gaskets, warped?) could be misaligned, out of spec so that it is holding the pump at a slight angle? Not enough to be visually obvious, but enough to cause the problem you have. Yes it could, but with out trial and error type fixing I can't really answer. Richard tuner suggested run it up with the FIP bracket removed and see what happens - I did try pre tension it when I last did it but I didnt think that did much. Considering how many new parts are used here and the anal way I re-built it, I have no question marks over what I did wrong or parts which are sub standard - its a bit of a head screw. I will however keep having a think as to how I can verify the parellel alignment, if I can do this I can work out what needs fixed... but I might die of old age before I work that out.. So due to everything being so new I'm assuming that I dont have a failed or worn part, but just "some" missaglinment, so I'm going to just try correct the missalignment by influencing what componets I can. 1) FIP mounting can be fiddled, 2) Tensioner position can be fiddled, 3) Look at putting a side wall on the Crank gear. I honestly havent got the effort to rip the whole thing apart again to put back together on the off-chance its corrected the problem, at least if I tweek the tensioner angle I can run up the engine and see that the belt is running an improved track... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted May 17, 2022 Share Posted May 17, 2022 16 hours ago, monkie said: An idea off the top of my head, so could be a load of nonsense... Could it be that either the mounting bracket (part number 5 in the diagram below) that holds the injection pump to the cover plate on the block or indeed something to do with the cover plate (thickness, gaskets, warped?) could be misaligned, out of spec so that it is holding the pump at a slight angle? Not enough to be visually obvious, but enough to cause the problem you have. It wouldnt take much at all to make the belt run off. You could try marking the relationship between the brackets 2 and 5 in Monkies diagram, then loosen the bolts 7, and see if the rear end of the pump moves towards the engine block at all. If it doesnt, see if you can lever it in very slightly (this is the way it will need to go) and re tighten. I have been looking at the engines I have here that use clockwork FIPs and a belt (Isuzu, Renault, and Merc) and it is interesting to note that the flange that the FIP is bolted to is cast as part of the engine block, so that there can be no misalignment. Even another Renault engine and a BMW M57, which are common rail, and use gears and a chain respectively have the same "cast in" arrangement. Whereas the 200 and 300 Tdi relies on an aluminium casing, which may not be machined quite parallel, and also a gasket which is another possible suspect. It would only take a small amount to cause this problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 17, 2022 Author Share Posted May 17, 2022 On 5/15/2022 at 3:44 PM, pat_pending said: So unless I've missed something, why do you think the noise is coming from the belt? I've been mulling this over - and reading a few other threads with 200tdi skimming belts - non have reported a sqeeling noise, the belt just usually wears its merry self away... Now I put it a new belt and new tensioner (last time) and the identical squeeling has started again - a small alarm bell has been rung, I think I need to pay more attention to the source of the noise and maybe not just assume its from the belt/tensioner interaction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted May 17, 2022 Share Posted May 17, 2022 Freelander 1 TD4 engines have a common problem with the crankshaft pulley/damper. When its failing is makes a ringing chirruping sort of noise that is hard to locate. Might be a similar thing ? I know you said that you had changed the damper. With the TD4 engine, the cheap replacements seem to make the same noise, I found this out by experience, and a Corteco one cured it for me. More expensive of course! Have a look with the engine idling when its dark and shine a torch on it, and you can see the fairy dust ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eightpot Posted May 17, 2022 Share Posted May 17, 2022 5 hours ago, Maverik said: I've been mulling this over - and reading a few other threads with 200tdi skimming belts - non have reported a sqeeling noise, the belt just usually wears its merry self away... Now I put it a new belt and new tensioner (last time) and the identical squeeling has started again - a small alarm bell has been rung, I think I need to pay more attention to the source of the noise and maybe not just assume its from the belt/tensioner interaction... The belt in my 200tdi snapped recently after starting to squeal on a 40 mile drive. The belt was fitted two years previously and had done two trips to the south of France. Failure was down to slight misalignment of the tensioner, and as I mentioned previously, was down to the tensioner backplate not being sat flat on the case when the nut was tightened down. Had similar happen with vehicles at work over the years, 200 & 300tdi , doesnt take much to walk the belt off. The way the dust is collecting in your cover I'd be surprised if it were anything other than an out of square tensioner. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 Just stumbled across This, might be something worth checking? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 18 hours ago, muddy said: Just stumbled across This, might be something worth checking? Interesting, I'll find something to screw to the pulley and see if there's any play in the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 Have you got the correct tension on the belt? I seem to recall that an incorrect tension will cause the belt to run out of true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 New timing belt 19Nm used or previously fitted belt 17Nm then torque tighten the cam pulley & FIP pulley 3 bolts. rotate engine 2 full rotations, recheck belt tesion, retighten tensioner bolt & then retighten timing belt & pulley bolts just read from my 200tdi workshop manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 In 3 drives its gone from slight squeek when warm to howling banshee, had to do a trip to Middlesbrough, she got me there and back, got to say it was a rather uncomfortable drive. Got some parts this week so will open her up this weekend, see if I can sort this now one way or another! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 4 hours ago, rusty_wingnut said: Have you got the correct tension on the belt? I seem to recall that an incorrect tension will cause the belt to run out of true. I did torque up as I've always done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 I've followed this , and have to say , it is a bit of a conundrum . The bulk of the belt fibres around the tensioner could just be because of it's smaller diameter, or not..... Hopefully when you open it up the gun will still be smoking . Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 20, 2022 Author Share Posted May 20, 2022 I'm taking this as a good omen... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted May 21, 2022 Share Posted May 21, 2022 As long as you don’t start wearing you hair up in pig tails and wearing a Gingham dress like Judy Garland… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 22, 2022 Author Share Posted May 22, 2022 Been a long day. So this is what I found when I opened her up... all in all, not a great deal... The belt was just starting to wear on the outer edge, you can feel a slight lip forming. So checked the cam pulley, all seemed as expected, had a play with the FIP pulley there is some end-float but couldn't feel any side to side motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 22, 2022 Author Share Posted May 22, 2022 Had a big head scratch and decided to play with offsetting the tensioner, so I sacrificed my feeler gauge for the cause, started with 0.5mm and went down every 0.1mm, I ran the engine on the starter to see each time where the belt ran on the tensioner. I stuck the feeler to the case with a bit of silicone, running it on the starter 0.1mm spacer seemed enough to centre the belt, but on running the engine the belt ran on the outer edge again, soo replacing the spacer to 0.3mm bounced the belt to the inner lip, with the engine running, so back to 0.2mm and the belt wasn't quite central on the tensioner, but after half a minute of running/revving, the belt sat about 0.15mm off the inner lip of the tensioner. So that is how I plan to set it. After a suggestion by Richard Turner, I've also drilled a 1/8npt inspection holes on the top of the chest so I can see where the belt is running on the FIP pulley. The npt tap hasn't arrived so can't finish it quite yet. I've also taken some reference pictures of what the belt looks like in different locations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 (edited) On 5/20/2022 at 8:56 PM, Maverik said: In 3 drives its gone from slight squeek when warm to howling banshee, I'm not seeing the cause of that sort of noise in those pictures. I can't help thinking you're barking up the wrong tree, particularly as you say the noise only started after you'd carried out work on the other end. Have you tried running it with the front cover off? Just a thought, might you have a loose or incorrectly positioned bolt touching the back of the flywheel? That would give you the change in pitch when depressing the clutch. I'm guessing here as I can't hear the noise. Edited May 22, 2022 by pat_pending 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 I think Western made a good point about the correct belt tension. How confident are you that the torque wrench you are using to set the tension is correct? Also I understand you shouldn't really use a click type torque wrench to set the tension on a timing belt tensioner. Can you borrow a dial type one just to check? Got to be worth a go? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 I guess it is always possible the tensioner bearing was faulty... and making the noise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 22, 2022 Author Share Posted May 22, 2022 1 hour ago, pat_pending said: I'm not seeing the cause of that sort of noise in those pictures. I can't help thinking you're barking up the wrong tree, particularly as you say the noise only started after you'd carried out work on the other end. Have you tried running it with the front cover off? Just a thought, might you have a loose or incorrectly positioned bolt touching the back of the flywheel? That would give you the change in pitch when depressing the clutch. I'm guessing here as I can't hear the noise. The noise is 100% from the front end, it's a really nasty screeching. - but not metal on metal. But I also 100% agree with you, I can't get my head around why it's making such a terrible noise. It did first start after I removed the engine but that is also isn't a given in my mind unfortunately. It was an 8 hours (500 mile) drive to the location I took the engine out could easily have just been at the point where belt wear had started to cause the noise. Yeah I've been running it on and off all day without the cover on as per my previous post content, I couldn't get it to squeal, but the engine was cold so I'm not that suprised. A bolt misaligned etc. I don't think so, the noise would be constant, not just appear after 1500 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 22, 2022 Author Share Posted May 22, 2022 25 minutes ago, monkie said: I think Western made a good point about the correct belt tension. How confident are you that the torque wrench you are using to set the tension is correct? Also I understand you shouldn't really use a click type torque wrench to set the tension on a timing belt tensioner. Can you borrow a dial type one just to check? Got to be worth a go? Yeah I've got a dial/bar type torque wrench coming tomorrow, this is what I used originally, and what I'll use to do a final set-up. I've had the belt on and off 8 times at least and I didn't see variation in the tensioner torque change the position of where the belt ran on the tensioner, the only thing that changed the position was altering the angle of the pulley slightly (using spacers). This incidently allowed the belt to run in a better location on all the pulleys not just on the tensioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted May 22, 2022 Author Share Posted May 22, 2022 17 minutes ago, Bowie69 said: I guess it is always possible the tensioner bearing was faulty... and making the noise? Ruled this out, as I changed this when the noise happend last time, new belt, tensioner, crank pulley and the noise came back the same after about ~1500 miles. I've wracking my brains to try think of what could cause such a nasty noise, other than the belt side loading the tensioner more than it should - only thing could be is a bearing in the FIP, but the noise wasn't coming from the FIP and its been rebuilt recently, so I find that unlikely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted May 22, 2022 Share Posted May 22, 2022 Have you taken that tensioner off and checked the wheel is at 90 deg to the base face ? The shim has proved something about the tensioner or mounting face is not running true . Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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