Held up at gunpoint

[Guest diesel_jim]

I've lost count the number of times i've been stopped at gunpoint out on the areas on the plain. best one was when i came haring into an area at night, full beam & spots on, the squaddie nearly shat himself!

Although i have to agree with Chris, eventhough whilst on a military traiing area you've got to expect to see guns, IIRC that section of the byway he was on is part of the Ridgeway route isn't it? i bet the bobblehat brigade would soon start crying, and that byway is also on the exteme edge of the ranges.

I must stop and take a proper read of the white "rules and bylaws" signs and see what they say (it's been ages since i last looked!) as i can understand the military being able to "stop" any member of the public, be then on foot or vehicle, when they are travelling on the MoD owned tracks (most of the flat gravel tracks are "cat1" tracks, and eventhough they're not official council approved RoW's, the MoD allow civvies to use them but can close them at a moments notice), but where Chris was, was a definte public road, i severly doubt an average soldier had the authority to stop a member of the public from going about their own business.

[Turbocharger]

As I said, irrespective of why the gun was pointed, surely such an excercise should be undertaken away from the public roads?

Yes, I agree, but if you push the army on that point and made a hoo-hah about it, I suspect they'd just file to close all the PROWs. If I was running any kind of shooting range, I'd be nervous about having any people in the fall out zone in case of a negligent discharge (it'd certainly skew the risk calcs!) and I'd push to close the ROW. In civvy land, that'd mean the range application was refused, but in MODland I reckon they'd close the road.

[Guest diesel_jim]

OK, i just phoned PC Gary Mogford, he's the beat copper for the SPTA area, i've known him for years so he gave it to me straight.

"Military personel don't have authority to stop civvies on byways. he/they were acting very ignorant of the law, other tracks they can stop you"

other tracks meaning the cat1 ones i mentioned just now.

Soo..... how long before Chris can't sleep because of the trauma and shock... ooh look, a freephone number for no-win-no-fee..... he'll soon be swanning around in a Td5 90 CSW!!!

[GBMUD]

OK, i just phoned PC Gary Mogford, he's the beat copper for the SPTA area, i've known him for years so he gave it to me straight.

"Military personel don't have authority to stop civvies on byways. he/they were acting very ignorant of the law, other tracks they can stop you"

other tracks meaning the cat1 ones i mentioned just now.

Soo..... how long before Chris can't sleep because of the trauma and shock... ooh look, a freephone number for no-win-no-fee..... he'll soon be swanning around in a Td5 90 CSW!!!

ROFL. I want a Rapier as compo...

Chris

[siearl]

OK, i just phoned PC Gary Mogford, he's the beat copper for the SPTA area, i've known him for years so he gave it to me straight.

"Military personel don't have authority to stop civvies on byways. he/they were acting very ignorant of the law, other tracks they can stop you"

other tracks meaning the cat1 ones i mentioned just now.

Soo..... how long before Chris can't sleep because of the trauma and shock... ooh look, a freephone number for no-win-no-fee..... he'll soon be swanning around in a Td5 90 CSW!!!

Sorry Jim i would beg to differ, Military people do have the authority to stop civvies on a byway if it runs through a military area. RAF Halton is a good example as it has public byways running right through its camp

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Chris,

How many times do we have to tell you ………….

The rag is for wiping your hands and checking the oil ……………not for wearing on your head

Ian

[chadler]

Ok, I've resisted the urge to post earlier on this thread, but I've taken my deep breath and still feel like I want to. I'll try to stop it coming across as a rant, and i'll probably end up offending someone but at least i'm qualified to comment.

1. You're on Salisbury Plain training area , as has been posted already I should hope the sight of a British Army soldier wouldn't be too disturbing.

2. The Clue is in the name, Armed Forces, we carry weapons. A concept which is alien, granted, to most people in society now due to firearms to ownership laws, but every soldier carrying one is trained to do so.

3. The sod off big yellow thing on the end of the rifle and the yellow magazine it would have been fitted with mean it had blanks in it. I would hope that the fact that it had a plugged barrel would suggest to you that you were not in immediate danger. It is called a blank firing adapter by the way for those who crave the terminology, in the absence of a bullet travelling up the barrel it allows the gas pressure to be contained in the gas mechanism of the weapon the re-cycle the action.

4. I am making an assumption here, but surely you realise that he would never have been carrying live rounds on a part of a training area where you are allowed to drive on. Even if he did, he would be in no hurry to shoot you, I assure you the paper work is not worth it.

5. He aimed his rifle at you because he was on an exercise manning a VCP, the simulated threat would not have been travelling in military vehicles. Also, who was it who made the comment on the fact that he should take more care not to offend terrorists in Afghanistan? Please read this back to yourself, and then again and again until it sounds as foolish as it should do. The scenario he was working to was this: Wiltshire is Al Amarah, vehicle drives up to a VCP, soldier readies his weapon in anticipation of any possible neccesary action, If he has just cause to think that you are a threat to human life, then he would have removed the safety catch and fired sufficient rounds to remove said threat by firing aimed shots at the centre of your body mass. He will have had to point that weapon at countless thousands of similar motorists, and not shot each of them for the same calculated reason. It is not a pleasant scenario, and it needs practice. And practice, and practice.

6. You say you weren't upset by having weapon systems aimed at you? Why have you posted on behalf of other people who might be upset? And why did you contact a policeman to ask if you should have been upset? If i'm not upset, I don't make enquiries to find out if I should be.

7. "They were probably practicing their friendly fire routine". That is morbid and disturbing, with reference to point 6, I am upset by that. I suspect his colleagues in Iraq or Afghanistan would be more upset if he didn't fire at a suspect suicide bomber that subsequently killed them.

8. "It may well be standard practice to point a weapon at a civilian but it is not bl**dy cricket to do so when there is no "emergency", no war, no marshal law and that civilian is posing no immediate threat to any human life, breaking no law nor looking like he might do so imminently and has had no warning. If the army needs to practice pointing guns, "safe" or not, at unarmed and un-warned civilians then it should do so AWAY from the public, away from roads to which the public have access etc." They are training for an "emergency" as you put it, and they were on land designated for doing so.

9. Not that he would have fired on you, as his rules of engagement (which again he will not be inclined to breach) wouldn't have supported the action. But even if he had, no damage can be sustained from a blank round with the BFA fitted, it has a bullet catcher on the end in case a live round is fired through it, it can cope with stopping cardboard wadding from a blank round I assure you.

10. If you feel the need to be alarmed further, consider all the weapon systems and observation devices that were trained on your vehicle that you didn't spot....

Ok, I'm not going to post on this thread again. I'm not looking for a fight, I only care about stating the so called "young jittery squaddie's case" for him, who even as an 18 year old private soldier, bears more weight of responsibility on his shoulders than anyone else in this land. As an aside, we hate being called squaddies, we are soldiers.

Goodnight

[Guest diesel_jim]

Sorry Jim i would beg to differ, Military people do have the authority to stop civvies on a byway if it runs through a military area. RAF Halton is a good example as it has public byways running right through its camp

Well, Gary has been the beat officer on the areas for as long as i can remember, being Wiltshire Constabulary i'm sure he knows what he's saying.

maybe "through a camp" and "on the edge of the areas" have different rules, i don't know and am not about to speculate, but i was just forwarding on what he told me this afternoon....

... not wanting to start a flamefest, but a byway is a public road, so if this public road was in the middle of a military camp or, say, the A303, or the B2001 from lower somewhere to upper somewhere else, it would carry the same rules (ie, you need a full MoT, insurance, tax etc etc).... if a squaddie jumped out in front of you on the A303 would you stop? or beep your horn and call him a _____ (insert word of choice here )

[GBMUD]

Thanks for your input Chadler. You do not want a fight and neither do I but I want to respond to the points you make;

1. You're on Salisbury Plain training area , as has been posted already I should hope the sight of a British Army soldier wouldn't be too disturbing.

No, it does not bother me. I have even seen TANKS and not been scared.

2. The Clue is in the name, Armed Forces, we carry weapons. A concept which is alien, granted, to most people in society now due to firearms to ownership laws, but every soldier carrying one is trained to do so.

Fair comment, cannot dispute that.

3. The sod off big yellow thing on the end of the rifle and the yellow magazine it would have been fitted with mean it had blanks in it. I would hope that the fact that it had a plugged barrel would suggest to you that you were not in immediate danger.

I could only see that at the point where I stopped, not at 50+ meters distance in silhouette.

4. I am making an assumption here, but surely you realise that he would never have been carrying live rounds on a part of a training area where you are allowed to drive on. Even if he did, he would be in no hurry to shoot you, I assure you the paper work is not worth it.

I would imagine that to be the case. One never knows though, even soldiers can go "rogue". I know a guy who, in army cadets, killed a cow by firing a pencil powered by a blank from a .303. Not relevant but makes you think.

5. He aimed his rifle at you because he was on an exercise manning a VCP, the simulated threat would not have been travelling in military vehicles. Also, who was it who made the comment on the fact that he should take more care not to offend terrorists in Afghanistan? Please read this back to yourself, and then again and again until it sounds as foolish as it should do. The scenario he was working to was this: Wiltshire is Al Amarah, vehicle drives up to a VCP, soldier readies his weapon in anticipation of any possible neccesary action, If he has just cause to think that you are a threat to human life, then he would have removed the safety catch and fired sufficient rounds to remove said threat by firing aimed shots at the centre of your body mass. He will have had to point that weapon at countless thousands of similar motorists, and not shot each of them for the same calculated reason. It is not a pleasant scenario, and it needs practice. And practice, and practice.

OK, I have not read the manual and I admit I do not understand procedure or the reality of fighting in Afghanistan.

VCP, Vehicle Check Point? Would this be identified by soldiers lying in ditches? or by signs saying STOP, barriers etc.? All I saw was the former - and one soldier in the road peering at me down the barrel of a gun.

6. You say you weren't upset by having weapon systems aimed at you? Why have you posted on behalf of other people who might be upset?

Because I was thinking about my fellow man. Not everyone has the same (obviously limited) level of understanding as I about where and when live rounds are likely to be carried. Someone may have been so scared as to crash their car/wet themselves/panic and accelerate in their shock. Just because I was not upset does not mean others would have taken it so lightly. As I said, my wife would have been terrified and that is not fair.

And why did you contact a policeman to ask if you should have been upset? If i'm not upset, I don't make enquiries to find out if I should be. I did not, that was Diesel_jim. He is taller and slimmer than me.

7. "They were probably practicing their friendly fire routine". That is morbid and disturbing, with reference to point 6, I am upset by that. I suspect his colleagues in Iraq or Afghanistan would be more upset if he didn't fire at a suspect suicide bomber that subsequently killed them.

British humour eh?

8. "It may well be standard practice to point a weapon at a civilian but it is not bl**dy cricket to do so when there is no "emergency", no war, no marshal law and that civilian is posing no immediate threat to any human life, breaking no law nor looking like he might do so imminently and has had no warning. If the army needs to practice pointing guns, "safe" or not, at unarmed and un-warned civilians then it should do so AWAY from the public, away from roads to which the public have access etc." They are training for an "emergency" as you put it, and they were on land designated for doing so.

That is no reason to involve unprepared civilians. There must be other soldiers to train on, soldiers who can be expecting guns pointed at them - they could even dress in civvies. The army is not short of private roads to practice on, thay do not need to use public highways.

10. If you feel the need to be alarmed further, consider all the weapon systems and observation devices that were trained on your vehicle that you didn't spot....

As long as they were safe then I have no problem with this. What I do not see, I, nor anyone else will not get upset by. Helicopters tracking cars is fine, they do not know that they are being tracked and are in no danger. Same with civilian aircraft being tracked as targets by military radar, no problem.

Ok, I'm not going to post on this thread again.

OK, but I hope I have made you understand my POV too.

Chris

[freeagent]

good lord, what a kerfuffle....

I'm planning a lanning trip to the plain over easter.... perhaps i'll just stay away, i'm going off the idea anyway as i'm not sure how to find out where i can and can't drive....

might just do some other Wiltshire lanes instead.....

As an aside, we hate being called squaddies, we are soldiers.

you've always been 'sqaddies' and you always will be.... its an affectionate name, just like 'Bobbies', so you can adjust that chip on you shoulder...

[VeryDisco]

Well, I can understand why feelings are a little tense over this

I can see the need for our boys to train, but are we expected to know the armed forces policy on vehicle check points and in fact what they look like. I would have no idea what a yellow thing on a gun meant, and I suspect quite a few others wouldn't either.

I certainly would have been very scared having a gun pointed at me - but then the poor soldier would have been deafened by my subsequent scream Hopefully he wouldn't have seen this as an agressive act and opened fire (safely or not)

I've come across the army loads of times when laning, seen them carrying guns, but never had one pointed at me.

If they can do this on a byway - can they do it on a highway too I wonder...

[Guest diesel_jim]

If they can do this on a byway - can they do it on a highway too I wonder...

Well, the local police officer for SPTA said that they can't do that, and shouldn't have done it.

a byway is a highway (same rules apply on both?)

[JST]

he was prob checking out the new rubber on the timiing belt and the wheels.........

wondering when it was going to all wear out again.

You need not worry, you were in a moving tgt so he prob couldnt hit you anyway.....

[TD5Spain]

Well we get stopped here in Spain regularly by well armed Police and civil guard....When they set up road blocks they mean stop...

There will be several vehicles at different angles to make vehicles entering the checkpoint slow down and several upto 20 officers will be positioned around at various vantage points...

They are all heavily armed with both automatic weapons and side arms.

They also have an answer to the UK "stinger" which a long multi pointed chain which literally shreds the tyres off the rims not slowly releases the air!

It is quite disconcerting when you first see one but then you just accept them.

I am not a warmonger and do not support conflict however I fully support all of our lads and girls on the ground because they are doing a fantastic job when most of them do not believe in the actions they are having to support.

Anyway enough from me on this one.

Cheers

TD5Spain

[JST]

our lads and girls on the ground because they are doing a fantastic job when most of them do not believe in the actions they are having to support.

here, here, but they have to do it because thats the MPs wish, but then they dont have to be in the forces. dont get me wrong i am 100% ebhind our boys i know how bad it can get and you dont necessarily sign up for the conditions of servce that you end up serving!

[tonyalbers]

If you ever get to DK, and you are being pulled over by troops, you'd better stop. Under most circumstances it's just an excercise, but in rare cases it's a real assignment (guarding a stranded HELO or other stuff like that). In the latter case, you will be stopped by force if you don't comply. There's no distinguishing between military and civvy areas when it comes to exercises, so you may meet troops everywhere.

We never have any problems with that though. Vikings don't get scared that easily

/tony

[ChrisV8]

Scary, reminds me of when we were the WSM Contractor at Catterick, all our subbies were instructed not to leave tool boxes in the back of vehicles without leaving them open for scrutiny. We had a persistent guy who would not comply, he was warned on a number of occasions, but MOD Plod got peed off in the end so a little excercise for the Bomb Squad ensued, big bang, Mondeo Estate ended up minus it's back door !!!!!

We were highly amused, Subbie very Mildly miffed off, Insurance Company just laughed, needless to say we dispensed with that Companies Services and all the other guys made sure tool boxes were easilt seen into !!!

But non compliance with Plod instructions no recompense !! Try explaining that to the boss !

[Guest WALFY]

Being on the other side of the fence to most of you on here I can see it from both sides. If you stop Civvies you do have the unpredictability of how they react making it more realistic BUT I have never heard of an Ex planning on stopping civvies on SPTA. They do have squaddies (horrible word) dressed as arabs/desert dwellers/chavs driving around in unmarked civvy cars to act as "locals" for whatever theatre of operations they are inending to fight. Again to make it more real for the Tom on the ground.

If it had been me I would of stopped Chris just to get a look at his LR, wouldn't bother so much with other makes. They would of had a brief as to the make/model of car the "target" is using so would of prepared for a certain vehicle to come their way

[Guest diesel_jim]

They do have squaddies (horrible word) dressed as arabs/desert dwellers/chavs driving around in unmarked civvy cars to act as "locals" for whatever theatre of operations they are inending to fight.

That would pretty much be every person in Swindon then!

[sean f]

Lots of comments about the training, but however it is done having a gun pointed at you is scary accidents DO happen, the use of a weapon sight to check out an object / person may work but is normally considered bad practice (different rules apply in higher risk areas). I guess this is mainly a case of people not being used to this sort of thing happening in the UK.

I agree they have to train but I would have though as others have said the use of other military personnel would be better (and possible more realistic if they are told to react in certain ways), rather then pulling over members of the public. Many of who would not recognise what the blank firing adapter was or what it signified so would assume the weapon was live.

There was an investigation a few years ago of a training exercise where a junior soldier was shot and killed with a live round when only blanks were supposed to have been issued, how this came about I have no idea, I only heard the news stories and don't know the military procedures involved but it must have involved a lot of mistakes from several different people, the lad still ended up dead though.

I shoot regularly on a range as a civilian, safety is the top priority. The only people I have ever seen thrown off a range were two naval pilots who repeatedly left the firing point with out having there weapon checked clear or turned around to talk to someone with the gun still in there hand. After several warnings the range office refused to allow them to continue shooting. Since we were a civilian club (with civilian range officer) using a military range the range officer had given them more slack than the rest of us due to the politics involved, if we upset the base comander our use could be stopped with no further discussion (after wards he stated he fully backed the actions of the range office). Should add the club had an agreement that military personnel could shoot with us if they wished with out being a member of the club, I have no idea what autherisation they required to draw a pistol and ammunition from the armoury and leave the main base but if they got that we let them shoot, normally it seemed to be juniorish officers who were approaching time to requalify or some similar test. The general assumption was if they could get permission to draw the weapon from the armoury they must know how to use it safely and this was almost alway the case.

[Guest WALFY]

There was an investigation a few years ago of a training exercise where a junior soldier was shot and killed with a live round when only blanks were supposed to have been issued, how this came about I have no idea, I only heard the news stories and don't know the military procedures involved but it must have involved a lot of mistakes from several different people, the lad still ended up dead though.

The magazines for live and blank are different. You can't fit live into a blank mag. Blank mags are covered in yellow paint to denote the fact. Before the transition from live firing to blank everyman has his kit checked by a responsible person and then when they have declared that there is no more live ammo on issue they get the blank issued.

[pux]

Also on another note when Playing Enemy/terry the taliban etc we usually get hired in Land Rover station wagons from SHB that will look exactly like chris landy, so i would have probaly done the same and thinking it was one of them and raised my rifle for a looky through the sight.

[bathtub]

[permit the loading of the next round from the magazine which enables fully automatic fire. It is surprising how much damage can be caused (at close range) with a blank round though!

Yer thats bad i never removed them when i was in the Army

Chris you where lucky we used to just sling a Thunder flash in the back as you went passed

[muzaz]

We have army and police roadblocks (you call them Vehicle Check Point?) almost every weekend during summer time...cant say they'll scare you if you got nothing to hide...they mainly check for drugs and arms... Police check points are normaly more relaxed,most of the times they are unarmed, and if they are armed the pistol is in the holster...The check is usually something like this, a flash with maglite at your face(almost blinding you!) I guess to check if you're drunk or high, and an ID card check, sometimes ask for vehicle insurance as well.

The army is different... sometimes they hide and suddenly you'll find a couple of armed soldiers in the middle signaling to stop...a quick look and they decide if you're to continue on your way or not...driving a commerical vehicle or van will often entitle you to a nice body search and vehicle inspection. Obviously you will comply, they dont usually aim their weapon at you, but if they suspect something they will...Ive once seen a taxi driver that didint want to have his car searched...in a couple of seconds he was on his knees hand behind his back tied with a cable tie and held at gun point...and they searched his car...and how did they searched it!! Ripped the rear seats to pieces in front of him...apparently he had drugs hidden.

[GBMUD]

hired in Land Rover station wagons from SHB that will look exactly like chris landy,

I had the 90 back then though - although at a distance even that could have looked new-ish... OK, at a considerable distance!

BT Pete, glad I never ran into you on excercise!

however it is done having a gun pointed at you is scary accidents DO happen, the use of a weapon sight to check out an object / person may work but is normally considered bad practice (different rules apply in higher risk areas). I guess this is mainly a case of people not being used to this sort of thing happening in the UK.

I agree they have to train but I would have though as others have said the use of other military personnel would be better (and possible more realistic if they are told to react in certain ways), rather then pulling over members of the public. Many of who would not recognise what the blank firing adapter was or what it signified so would assume the weapon was live.

That was very much my original point (18 months ago now!). I understood that they were training and I know what they yellow barrel plug is for and what it signifies. I have also been into any number of military and other government establishments so I am well used to seeing guns held by guards at gate houses. My wife however could recognize a soldier in uniform and recognize a gun; that is as far as it goes. I am sure that she would have been very scared if anyone had pointed a gun at her - as much due to the remote location as anything.

Chris