The financial crisis - a period of economic readjustment ?

[jason110]

We have a detached house of around 200m2, it was built in 1961. 
 

the walls have blown polystyrene balls, the attic has been insulated with rock wool up to 400mm and we’ve had new double glazing installed right through. 
 

the oil boiler is a new Condensing Worcester Bosch outdoor boiler. It’s great, gets the house lovely and warm. We use around 1500 Litres of oil per year, but the heating is on 24/7 at 20 degrees throughout the winter and then set to 19 during the winter but it never cuts in during the warmer months. 
 

the best thing we did was insulate the attic and fit the new windows. 
 

I should also mention, we had a “tado” thermostat. It’s fully programmable and I can control it all from my phone with full control over temperatures and timings etc. I’m sure that’s saved my a few quid 

[jeremy996]

21 hours ago, Daan said:

Can I ask how outrageous, as I believe a ground source heat pump is the only viable solution to all this. But any local specialist that can do it is so busy they don't even answer a phone or email.

(Please PM me if you don't want to share).

Daan

Air Source Heat Pump - £18,795 all in, hopefully netted down by the government £5000 small bribe. (Estate house, small garden, no space for a plant room).

We have a micro-bore wet central heating system, so much of the difference between the actual cost of the heat pump and the final bill is either a hedge against large scale radiator changes, (if required after a detailed survey), or profit. A similar system in a house 25 miles, (same builder, similar floor plan), away with a more southerly aspect was just over £14k.

[Bowie69]

New oil boiler : £5k.

And the grant is just another way of spending working class money on middle class families homes (as they are the only people able to afford heat pumps).

[SteveG]

2 hours ago, Bowie69 said:

New oil boiler : £5k.

And the grant is just another way of spending working class money on middle class families homes (as they are the only people able to afford heat pumps).

Not sure this has ever been the case in the history of tax collecting in the UK, so I looked up the current stats.

You’ll see from this image here that the bottom 50% of tax payers contribute 9.4% of income tax and NIC receipts in the UK, so as you can the vast majority, 90.6%, of HMRC revenue that is from income tax and NIC receipts is from the top 50% of tax payers.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8513/

[Bowie69]

Appreciate that, but people earning an average wage are paying tax, and that some of it is being used to fund ASHP and other green initiatives that none of them can afford to take advantage of.

[sgnas]

Glad someone understands how personal taxation works.

 

8-10 years ago I added up all the PAYE, NIC, DUTY, VAT etc of a work colleague vs their expected return (education, healthcare, services, infrastructure) to prove that if you have 2 kids in education you are not a net tax payer until you earn substantially more than the average wage. If you are unfortunate enough actually need to make use of the health service for a serious health issue it is entirely possible that you will never be a net tax payer…..

[Snagger]

On 9/10/2022 at 7:23 PM, sgnas said:

Glad someone understands how personal taxation works.

 

8-10 years ago I added up all the PAYE, NIC, DUTY, VAT etc of a work colleague vs their expected return (education, healthcare, services, infrastructure) to prove that if you have 2 kids in education you are not a net tax payer until you earn substantially more than the average wage. If you are unfortunate enough actually need to make use of the health service for a serious health issue it is entirely possible that you will never be a net tax payer…..

Yep.  And still people like me got vilified and pilloried by so many on the left despite me paying about 35% total of my gross pay, plus NICs, and using the private eduction system for my kids which also allows state school kids to use sports and arts facilities that the state schools can’t have for themselves.  Pay vastly more tax, add indirectly to the state education system and still get called childish names and have universities actively discriminate against my kids…. Socialism - it’s a criminal mindset.

[Snagger]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:48 PM, Bowie69 said:

Also, air source  may be 3:1 , but rapidly drops when cooler outside to 2:1.

Spoke and mirrors around the whole thing.

ASHP , as stated, requires your central heating running at a much lower temperature, which means you end up running them all the time to get a base level heat in the house.

Whereas my heating runs at 85C, can heat the living area up in 30 mins quite happily, and then start cycling as and when needed.

Which is better? Running all the time, or just when needed.....

Answers on a postcard... 

It is best to run the boiler at the lowest temperature that produces the heat you need.  A steadily plod is better than short sprints.

50+ for the hot water should be enough to prevent Legionaires disease, they say, and 55-60 is a good target for the heating output.  If you can get it down to 50ish and still be comfortable, then that indicates your rad system is big enough to run heat pumps without modifications.

[smallfry]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

…. Socialism - it’s a criminal mindset.

I nearly choked on my tea ! Thats a bit strong ! Misguided and flying in the face of basic human nature, but not actually criminal, surely ?

[Bowie69]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

It is best to run the boiler at the lowest temperature that produces the heat you need.  A steadily plod is better than short sprints.

50+ for the hot water should be enough to prevent Legionaires disease, they say, and 55-60 is a good target for the heating output.  If you can get it down to 50ish and still be comfortable, then that indicates your rad system is big enough to run heat pumps without modifications.

Different for different people....

I have an open vented heat store, not a water cylinder, which needs/should be heated up to 75C, so boiler needs to be 85C to let it get there. Water is mixed from mains pressure cold and mains pressure hot through the heat store to get a thermostatically controlled 45-55C depending on where I set it. Mixer valves are legally required for all new and replacement systems like this.

I'm not sure how running the boiler cooler will help at all apart from slow the heating process of the house? I don't spend all day in the main property when working, and am frequently out during the weekends, so only use the heating in short bursts -with a lower temp the house would never get up to temperature.

With my Hive, you can set different temps for different days and times of day, for example when you get up there's no point heating the house up to 20C, in winter I just use it to take the edge off if required, I'm only in there for an hour or so before heading to the office to work. Whereas in the evening I can set it to a more normal 20C. I tend to just heat the living area (fairly open plan downstairs) and have the rest of the radiator valves on frost setting or very close. You can get battery powered radiator valves as well, to control the individual radiators, so put a bit of heat in the bedroom before bed, though I don't find the need, that is what a 13 tog duvet is for.

The Hive combined with insulation are two of the biggest energy savers, I reckon, Hive paid for itself twice over in the first winter compared to just radiator valves and no room thermostat.

 

[monkie]

27 minutes ago, smallfry said:

I nearly choked on my tea ! Thats a bit strong ! Misguided and flying in the face of basic human nature, but not actually criminal, surely ?

You could probably take any polical movement, push it to the extreme and come to the conclusion it is criminal. 

Even considering our lot of incompetent politicians here in the UK; when you take a look at what is happening in the world, we aren't doing too badly. 

[jeremy996]

3 hours ago, Snagger said:

Yep.  And still people like me got vilified and pilloried by so many on the left despite me paying about 35% total of my gross pay, plus NICs, and using the private eduction system for my kids which also allows state school kids to use sports and arts facilities that the state schools can’t have for themselves.  Pay vastly more tax, add indirectly to the state education system and still get called childish names and have universities actively discriminate against my kids…. Socialism - it’s a criminal mindset.

Until your last statement, you had my understanding. What you are complaining about are the politics of envy, not socialism.

I will concede that most noise come from those who assume the mantle of socialism as a convenient justification for their small-minded whinging, but don't polarise the argument by offending your potential allies.

Have a look at the Political Compass. This has a go at trying to analyse between economic and social factors, from full collectivism to full free markets, authoritarianism to libertarianism. I am a partially collective libertarian, as I want social co-operation to offset the dangers of capitalism and I want the state to keep out of personal affairs.  

[Daan]

1 hour ago, jeremy996 said:

Until your last statement, you had my understanding. What you are complaining about are the politics of envy, not socialism.

I will concede that most noise come from those who assume the mantle of socialism as a convenient justification for their small-minded whinging, but don't polarise the argument by offending your potential allies.

Have a look at the Political Compass. This has a go at trying to analyse between economic and social factors, from full collectivism to full free markets, authoritarianism to libertarianism. I am a partially collective libertarian, as I want social co-operation to offset the dangers of capitalism and I want the state to keep out of personal affairs.  

Ok, chaps, can I ask to get back to the task in hand, being how to keep my house nice and warm without breaking the bank? 

Socialism: don't knock it, to prove this point it is Communism that got us in this mess in the first place!

Daan

[simonr]

Good idea for a thread!

I've been looking at Solar & Battery Storage for at least the last decade.  Back in 2012, battery storage didn't make sense.  The payback time was in the order of 30 years based on what you could potentially save.  Payback on Solar was 10 to 25 Years.  Better, but not worth it really.

Gradually however, it has got better & better, until now it's a no-brainer.  So long, that is, if you can afford the system in the first place & have somewhere to put batteries and / or panels.  Luckily I can / have - sort of.  Based on our electricity consumption and the rates you can buy it (off peak) from Octopus Energy, the payback time for Batteries is now in the 3-5 year range.

I've just ordered a GivEnergy HY5 G2 + 9.5kWh of batteries due to be installed next month.

I talked to a few Solar companies but based on the area of our roof (as viewed on Google Earth) they didn't think I could install more than 1.5kW capacity - which is just not worth the installation cost.  I have almost that capacity on my Camper Van!

My solution (yet to be built) is this:

Effectively a solar-porch or pergola with 5kW worth of translucent panels (to let a bit of light through).  I had planned to build it at the moment - but availability of panels says otherwise!  The inverter I've ordered will just plug into whatever panels I eventually install - but will start saving money immediately.

It will be interesting to see how the batteries on their own perform & if the real savings compare to the potential.

I had to apply for planning permission for the above, which seems daft to me when I could build the porch without panels without permission.  You need permission for anything over 9 sqm of panels not attached to your roof.  Fortunately Planning were reasonably enthusiastic about it.  I think they can see the writing on the wall for a future where every available surface is covered in panels!

I bought a single translucent panel to test.  It's connected to a micro-grid-tie inverter from Amazon which you just plug in to a mains socket & it feeds power into the house.  It only generates about 400W peak - but it has made a noticeable difference over the summer.

 

 

[Arjan]

Interesting...

A real world test - please keep us informed..

 

[Nonimouse]

I'm fascinated that people need to keep there homes at 20 degrees C in the winter!  Our CH is set at 16 degrees C for the winter, off on a night, with just the block work round the fire retaining warmth for the morning.

We live in a mid sixties bungalow of four bedrooms, with a hoofin gert extension. If anyone is cold, then they get to put on a jersey or pull up a cat - same as in bed, put a fleece blanket over the duvet. The kids have grown up like that, I grew up without the CH bit, so regulalry scraped ice off the inside of my bedroom window. The wife is menopausal so is never cold; and in fact can warm a room.

As and when I pay off the mortgage, there will be a wood burner going in the sitting room, and in my office (that will be a very small one)

[elbekko]

7 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

I'm fascinated that people need to keep there homes at 20 degrees C in the winter!  Our CH is set at 16 degrees C for the winter, off on a night, with just the block work round the fire retaining warmth for the morning.

We live in a mid sixties bungalow of four bedrooms, with a hoofin gert extension. If anyone is cold, then they get to put on a jersey or pull up a cat - same as in bed, put a fleece blanket over the duvet. The kids have grown up like that, I grew up without the CH bit, so regulalry scraped ice off the inside of my bedroom window. The wife is menopausal so is never cold; and in fact can warm a room.

As and when I pay off the mortgage, there will be a wood burner going in the sitting room, and in my office (that will be a very small one)

I sit behind a computer all day working from home. Anything under 19°C and my hands get very, very uncomfortable. And I'm not going to sit inside with gloves on.

Question for those that have it: is the Tado better than the Nest? It seems to me that it would be, especially if it integrates well with the radiator knobs.

[Daan]

30 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

I'm fascinated that people need to keep there homes at 20 degrees C in the winter!  Our CH is set at 16 degrees C for the winter, off on a night, with just the block work round the fire retaining warmth for the morning.

We live in a mid sixties bungalow of four bedrooms, with a hoofin gert extension. If anyone is cold, then they get to put on a jersey or pull up a cat - same as in bed, put a fleece blanket over the duvet. The kids have grown up like that, I grew up without the CH bit, so regulalry scraped ice off the inside of my bedroom window. The wife is menopausal so is never cold; and in fact can warm a room.

As and when I pay off the mortgage, there will be a wood burner going in the sitting room, and in my office (that will be a very small one)

You should talk to my wife.

[Nonimouse]

35 minutes ago, elbekko said:

I sit behind a computer all day working from home. Anything under 19°C and my hands get very, very uncomfortable. And I'm not going to sit inside with gloves on.

 

Wear fingerless gloves

[smallfry]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

I'm fascinated that people need to keep there homes at 20 degrees C in the winter!  Our CH is set at 16 degrees C for the winter, off on a night, with just the block work round the fire retaining warmth for the morning.

We live in a mid sixties bungalow of four bedrooms, with a hoofin gert extension. If anyone is cold, then they get to put on a jersey or pull up a cat - same as in bed, put a fleece blanket over the duvet. The kids have grown up like that, I grew up without the CH bit, so regulalry scraped ice off the inside of my bedroom window. The wife is menopausal so is never cold; and in fact can warm a room.

As and when I pay off the mortgage, there will be a wood burner going in the sitting room, and in my office (that will be a very small one)

Eeeee, and we had Hovis for us tea 😁

This is exactly what we do, except when the woodburner is on, its too hot !

When I was a kid we had no CH either, and my dear Mum would not have a coal fire any more because of the mess, and the fact that my Dad expected it to be on when he got up for work ! He learned some new words that he had never heard before from Mum, despite having been in the Army !

I too remember ice, and the puddles of condensation on the inside of my bedroom window. Also took my school clothes to bed, so they were warmish and damp free in the morning.

[Bowie69]

1 hour ago, elbekko said:

I sit behind a computer all day working from home.

Same.... 20C is a minimum really, even with jumpers and slippers you end up with cold extremities. But my office is 2x3M and insulated to the hilt, so means even on really cold days a spike of a 1KW electric heater in the morning generally keeps it warm with the computer and body warmth.

26 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Wear fingerless gloves

Seriously would not work.... my typing is fast but error prone, I don't need any more help!

[miketomcat]

Ours is set to 18°c my eldest and wife are home all day as they home school. We had an open fire in the last house but it was generally only use if utterly misserable outside or we were wet. This house doesn't have one and we miss it. It's jumpers or get cold in our house, we have fleece blankets on the sofa for movie nights having said that my wife will use them in the summer. I would love to do more but it always seems to be you have to pay out X to get a saving of Y and it'll take 3+years to cover the initial cost which I simply cannot do. We already live a fruggle lifestyle and don't see how I can make it better.

Mike

[reb78]

I spent the whole weekend cutting firewood. Still have to split it. Hopefully the Rayburn goes in next month. I have also fitted a 3500l oil tank recently in the hope that i can take advantage of lower price periods but also cut down on its use with more wood. I will be adding a log burner back boiler to the system we install with the Rayburn too. I hope, for heating to become self sufficient through wood eventually (my own stuff with top ups from outside that I don't need to rely on).

What I really would like is to add solar PV to the shed roofs - these are south facing. But I really don't know where to start with it, not having had any training in this area. The sheds are huge and could easily accommodate many more panels than I think I would need. I also have masses of space that could be used for battery storage. Like I say though, I am not sure where to even start with this! Cost will be an issue I am sure.

Edited September 12, 2022 by reb78

[FridgeFreezer]

17 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

We already live a fruggle lifestyle and don't see how I can make it better.

Stopping playing with rattly old Land Rovers and get a sensible econobox as a daily would save you tonnes annually but of course then you'd be bored

@reb78 I think just looking up local solar installers is the first step, by the sound of it they're on a par with double glazing salesmen in that one lot will quote you (for example) 50k and lead you on a merry dance down to only 25k while the sensible ones will quote you 10k straight off for basically the same end result.

Unfortunately a lot of this kit still costs a fair bit up-front but as Simon says, the costs are dropping rapidly and the payoff times are getting shorter, especially as the prices of energy are climbing too. Can't be long before it's almost worth getting a short bank loan to get a system installed as the payoff will be not much longer than the loan.

[Daan]

1 hour ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Stopping playing with rattly old Land Rovers and get a sensible econobox as a daily would save you tonnes annually  

Burn the witch, burn him!