The financial crisis - a period of economic readjustment ?

[reb78]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Stopping playing with rattly old Land Rovers and get a sensible econobox as a daily would save you tonnes annually but of course then you'd be bored

@reb78 I think just looking up local solar installers is the first step, by the sound of it they're on a par with double glazing salesmen in that one lot will quote you (for example) 50k and lead you on a merry dance down to only 25k while the sensible ones will quote you 10k straight off for basically the same end result.

Unfortunately a lot of this kit still costs a fair bit up-front but as Simon says, the costs are dropping rapidly and the payoff times are getting shorter, especially as the prices of energy are climbing too. Can't be long before it's almost worth getting a short bank loan to get a system installed as the payoff will be not much longer than the loan.

Thats my problem. All the installers seem like dodgy used car salesmen crossed with a pikey who setup a dodgy website yesterday with about as much knowledge of what they are selling as me! I struggle to trust I think!!

Edited September 12, 2022 by reb78

[simonr]

1 minute ago, reb78 said:

Thats my problem. All the installers seem like dodgy used car salesmen crossed with a pikey who setup a dodgy website yesterday with about as much knowledge of what they are selling as me! I struggle to trust I think!!

When I was looking for quotes, I found some of that.  I ended up looking on Check-a-trade (or one of the similar sites) and one of the recommendations was a local electrician who also did solar.  They weren't that interested in selling me a complete system.  I researched what Inverter & battery system I wanted, it happened to be one they were a reseller for.  They quoted, I've paid 25% up front and the balance on completion.  He couldn't supply the panels I wanted - so he suggested I order them & just get them to wire them up to the inverter - which I thought was much better than giving a hard sell on the panels they could supply.

Just like buying a car, mobile or double glasing - you just have to find the right company.

[smallfry]

I have delivered to a couple of houses that had geothermal heating. Seems ideal, very uncomplicated, and works rain or shine (or dark) only uses a small amount of electricity I understand.

Anyone got any experience ?

[simonr]

2 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Stopping playing with rattly old Land Rovers and get a sensible econobox as a daily would save you tonnes annually but of course then you'd be bored.

That is, of course, the Elephant in the room!

However, my Elephant is my friend & I'm keeping him 🙂

[simonr]

3 minutes ago, smallfry said:

Anyone got any experience ?

I looked at ground-sourced heat pumps.  It either meant digging up the whole garden - & the garden aparently wasn't really big enough (1/5th Acre), or drilling a vertical shaft.  I can't remember the exact depth, but I think it was about 60m.  Again, I can't remember the cost but at the time it was prohibitave.  Might be worth re-looking now though!

We're all going to be forced down the route of air or ground sourced heat pumps in the not to distant future.  Our boiler really needs replacing - so I'll have to look at it soon.

The down-sides of air-sourced, at least is the pump itself is fairly big and judging by one which has been installed around the corner from here, fairly noisy.  I'm told you need a bigger HW cylinder & ideally need to increase the bore of the CH pipework because the water coming out of the pump is cooler than out of a boiler.  I really don't fancy having to tear out all the CH pipework & probably radiators as well - and I have no idea where to put a bigger HW tank!  It sounds like a great option for new-builds or if you are replacing the whole heating system - but adds too much cost otherwise.

My stop-gap plan is to use the excess solar energy to run the immersion heater in the HW tank.  I think that should provide all the hot water over the summer.  Maybe if we looked at better insulation too, it would be viable to abandon the gas boiler altogether & just use the immersion heater?

[miketomcat]

3 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Stopping playing with rattly old Land Rovers and get a sensible econobox as a daily would save you tonnes annually but of course then you'd be bored

@reb78

I actually disagree with this statement, a sensible eurobox at the price I could afford would likely be not much more reliable than my vehicles. If I were to use garages for repairs then it would be more money judging by my work colleagues. More importantly if you take into account depreciation it's not even close. Yes my cars are an expensive hobby but my cars are not just a hobby they are our commuter hacks, work tug and tow vehicle. I can't do all this with a eurobox.

Yes I do know your baiting me and yes I am bitting. 

Mike

[Happyoldgit]

We have an old red brick and flint farmhouse in an isolated location so no mains gas and I flatly I refuse to have oil again. There is no wet heating and radiators instead we retained the night storage heaters that run off one of the two phase supplies during off-peak hours. The AGA used to be solid fuel [coke, wouldn't burn wood] but this meant running it through the summer which turned the kitchen and rooms off into a sauna so we had it converted to electric [runs off a dedicated 13a supply]. The house is somewhat quirky and we are keen to keep it this way. So many old properties have lost their character by having rooms knocked through and layouts changed. Most of the rooms retain their original fireplaces but we have a woodburner in the largest fireplace in what was the farm office but I'm waiting to look at a new model out that has an over and hotplate for use if and when we have a power cut. We have some land and a bit of woodland...

After purchase and before we moved in we had the leaky roof stripped and Norfolk reeds underneath removed [a thick layer of reeds under tiles was fairly common in old properties around here] and Celotex insulation was added between the joists. We were advised that is was not necessary to add anything between the rafters, the Celotex being considered enough and it would defeat the object of the new breathable membrane under the pantiles. The house faces due south so one half of the roof would be ok for solar panels but the wife and I really don't want to cover up the old clay pantiles. The rear roof is much larger in area and we are not so bothered about the look of that aspect but it faces due north ...hmmmm.

Can't do cavity wall insulation as the walls are solid brick and some flint walls with lime mortar. I don't want to change the character of the place by slapping insulation on the internal Waals as I foresee  that potentially causing issues with the fabric of the building. There is a balance to be had, it's an old house [bits dating back to the 16th century] not a modern property so there are limits on the improvements that can be made while retaining its character. Nobody here wants to walk about in T shirt and shorts indoors during the winter, I'm one on the no CH, ice on the inside of the windows generations too.  That said the wife spent years working in what to me seemed to be overheated offices and she would constantly complain about feeling cold when she got home, she has hardened up a fair bit now the majority of her time is spent working from home. If she needs to warm up she mucks out the horses or poo picks their fields 😄

Our electrickery supplier is Octopus with a capped price until the end of April. What to do - if anything?



 

[Stellaghost]

16 minutes ago, miketomcat said:

 

Yes I do know your baiting me and yes I am bitting. 

Mike

Reel him in boys, reel him in......

Quite apt your statement considering you work on boats.........

Don't change @miketomcat mikeeurobox does not sound interesting at all !!!

Regards Stephen

[miketomcat]

7 minutes ago, Stellaghost said:

Reel him in boys, reel him in......

Quite apt your statement considering you work on boats.........

Don't change @miketomcat mikeeurobox does not sound interesting at all !!!

Regards Stephen

Don't worry I had a eurobox a few years ago. Skoda Octavia, I paid £500 for it. I had to fix the dash as it didn't work, replace a ball joint and get the back doors to actually open. I had it for 18 months, it was by a long way the best, most comfortable, reliable and quite vehicle I've ever had......and I hated every single second I owned it. It bored me into a state of oblivion, I was building the ibex at the time so even had an excuse for having it. I sold it and bought a rusty discovery which I ran until it failed it's MOT then it donated various parts for the ibex. Then I bought a written off 110 which we still have.....

Mike

[geoffbeaumont]

3 hours ago, miketomcat said:

Ours is set to 18°c my eldest and wife are home all day as they home school. We had an open fire in the last house but it was generally only use if utterly misserable outside or we were wet. This house doesn't have one and we miss it. It's jumpers or get cold in our house, we have fleece blankets on the sofa for movie nights having said that my wife will use them in the summer. I would love to do more but it always seems to be you have to pay out X to get a saving of Y and it'll take 3+years to cover the initial cost which I simply cannot do. We already live a fruggle lifestyle and don't see how I can make it better.

Mike

Pretty much our situation, too. I work from home and both kids are home educated, so there's someone in most of the time. House is a mess of extensions on a small 30s bungalow. We've just renovated it so it's now pretty much as well insulated as it can be. We're rural, but on mains gas for heating, hot water and the cooker hobs. We've a log burner in the living room, but it only currently gets used in the middle of winter, and then mainly for atmosphere (that may change depending on gas prices...) as it gets a bit too hot. No source of free firewood anyway.

We keep the heating at about 18^oC in the winter during the evening - dropped to 16^oC during the days my wife isn't also working from home, summer it's turned off (and the door usually left open for the dogs). Plenty of heat from computers in the office anyway, plus it's above the kitchen and open to it so always excessively warm anyway. Personally I'll happily work in low temperatures.

We've enough land for ground source, but it would need to enter the house on the opposite side from where the pipework would be laid, either circling the house under driveways or tunneled under it. Dread to think what that would cost. Air source would be much easier, but would be noisy in our bedroom and probably also the office. Either way not sure where we could put a water cylinder - the pump would take up the cupboard that contains the combi boiler.

Solar is worth looking at - we've some south facing roof on the garage, but the building needs replacing first. We've got a decent area of it over the living room too, but that would probably not go down well with the neighbours who would get a lovely close up view of it from their patio. That roof is already a bit contentious as the bottom end of it was built illegally (well before current ownership of either house) and violates the boundary. Wonder if the nearly horizontal roof on the dormers would be usable...?

[simonr]

My backup plan, if planning permission for the solar was refused was to make a 'solar, covered walkway' from the house to my workshop.  Just supporting a string of panels on posts, the panels forming a roof.  I figured it could qualify as a temporary structure.  I also wondered about lining the inside of one of the fences with panels.  I'm kind of surprised nobody makes solar fencing!

I suspect the cost of energy will continue to rise (and not fall significantly when the current crises are over) - so I may implement the above anyway.  I quite like the idea of a covered walkway to my workshop!  The covered walkway and fence could deliver another 5kW capacity potentially with minimal build cost on top of the panels. 

On my Van, I've used panels made by Canadian Solar.  These are designed for diffused light - and produce almost as much power when the sun is obscured by cloud as not.  They don't seem to be a common option in the UK for some reason?  Panels are supposed to deliver the highest efficiency inclined at about 51 deg in the UK.  The ones on the van are horizontal - but still seem to perform well.  These might be a good option for locations that don't get particularly good light?

[Daan]

Here is a project for you: have a small array of solar panels, but rotate them so they stay perpendicular with the sunlight at any given time. This is far more effective than stationary panels.

I did look into it some time ago, it is fairly complicated, but entirely possible, and has been done before.

Daan

[steve b]

10 minutes ago, Daan said:

Here is a project for you: have a small array of solar panels, but rotate them so they stay perpendicular with the sunlight at any given time. This is far more effective than stationary panels.

I did look into it some time ago, it is fairly complicated, but entirely possible, and has been done before.

Daan

This is something that has been rattling around in my head for a few years , shaped like a flower it would also be aesthetically pleasing too ..

What are the thoughts on direct solar water heating panels- I remember them being a hot topic in the 70's energy "adjustment" ?

Steve 

[jeremy996]

2 hours ago, simonr said:

My stop-gap plan is to use the excess solar energy to run the immersion heater in the HW tank.  I think that should provide all the hot water over the summer.  Maybe if we looked at better insulation too, it would be viable to abandon the gas boiler altogether & just use the immersion heater?

If you have excess solar electricity and a battery system, there are electric boilers that would substitute for your gas one. I have a client with his and hers Teslas and a massive solar array that is set to heat the domestic water first, then the house then feed the battery, then the grid. They have a radio based gadget that detects solar generation then turns on the immersion first.

33 minutes ago, steve b said:

What are the thoughts on direct solar water heating panels- I remember them being a hot topic in the 70's energy "adjustment" ?

The Chinese have productionised solar vacuum tubes for water heating that are almost unaffected by low external tempretures or cold winds, (the old black panels were shockers for losing heat faster than they captured it). https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice/solar-water-heating/

 

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Daan said:

Here is a project for you: have a small array of solar panels, but rotate them so they stay perpendicular with the sunlight at any given time. This is far more effective than stationary panels.

Is it though? Most commercial installations I've seen are fixed, and last I bothered giving it any thought I came to the conclusion that for the money it costs to build & maintain something like that you're better off just buying an extra panel or two and throwing them up with the rest with no moving parts.

These days the moving jig will probably cost you as much as per-panel as a solar panel to bolt on to it.

[crclifford]

So, I am renovation my 1700s stone farmhouse in Wales. It also has a modern built extension.

TLDR: in 2019 I had an 16kW ASHP (Nibe) fitted, it cost me £11800 for supply and fit of the ASHP (it is pretty quiet when it runs). However it also cost me just under £2k to have the pole mounted transformer upgraded (if connecting anything to the network you must get DNO permission). This is fitted to UFH downstairs and upstairs.

my adage - spend as much as you can afford on insulation, it is more cost effective then paying for some new technology that will need replacing in 5-10yrs. 

So what....

bad news...my electricity bill last winter nearly killed me in cost but the main house is leaky as hell, still single glazed mostly and solid walls with no insulation. Electricity is the only means of heating/cooking etc in the house and the electricity ranged from 1500 - 2100 kWh/mo

what am I doing as I continue the renovation....

all solid walls (external) are getting 40mm insulation (woodfibre) with lime plaster under and over. The roof was redone back in 2013/14 (when we purchased) with sheep wool (150mm) and woodfibre boards internal (120mm). 

All windows are being replaced with timber double glazed (this should be complete by end of the year. 

I hope with all this to not have as much an electricity bill this winter!

i still have more insulation to put on the walls, but at the moment I am not sure that the upstairs UFH pump has turned on much, as the thermostats all ready 23+ and they are set to turn the pump on to maintain 20+.

in the future I am thinking of fitting a thornhill cooker (they do a hybrid wood/electric one) to reduce electricity. I’ll also fit wood burners in the fireplaces, once the chimneys are lined. Also will be looking at solar PV and batteries once the house is finished (tech and prices should be down then).

what has renovation cost the wife and I so far, nearly the same as it cost to buy. But we have no kids and no plans for them and this is the forever home (wife’s words).

[sean f]

5 hours ago, smallfry said:

I have delivered to a couple of houses that had geothermal heating. Seems ideal, very uncomplicated, and works rain or shine (or dark) only uses a small amount of electricity I understand.

Anyone got any experience ?

Not got experience of using it personally but been involved in a couple of projects with it. It kind of depends on what you class as geothermal energy, a ground source heat pump is geothermal energy, from that it goes across to projects like they have in Iceland using seriously heated rock which isn't going to happen in the UK. The recent project in Cornwall restarted the old HDR (Hot Dry Rocks) project with a couple of new deep well bores, this pumps fluid down one well and it heats up before coming up the other, it definitely works but whether it is economic after spending 10's of millions drilling the holes is questionable and what they are trying to work out down there. On a smaller scale I have drilled a few holes in Holland which if I remember correctly where only about 4-5000ft deep so only cost a few million each, which worked on a similar principle, that was for heating industrial green houses.

At a domestic level geothermal is not going to be hot enough for heating directly with out serious up front spending (very efficient once done but no idea what the pay back period would be) but the hotter the input to a ground source heat pump the less it works (costs!) to put usable heat into a house, any hole would need to be deep enough and long enough to provided the output required, heat only flows through rock at a set rate so suck to much out and it will cool down before more heat from below heats it back up.

The basic theory of a heat pump has been around for years, your fridge is a heat pump, it pumps heat from in the fridge to outside the fridge, turn it round and build it into a wall with the door open out side the house and the cooling coil inside and it's an air source heat pump, although probable a very inefficient one. Just like a fridge will only work efficiently over a certain temperature range heat pumps of all sorts will have an efficient working range presumable tailored to the environment they are expected to be working in, a more stable input temperature should enable it to be set up more efficiently.

[sean f]

11 hours ago, simonr said:

Good idea for a thread!

I've been looking at Solar & Battery Storage for at least the last decade.  Back in 2012, battery storage didn't make sense.  The payback time was in the order of 30 years based on what you could potentially save.  Payback on Solar was 10 to 25 Years.  Better, but not worth it really.

Gradually however, it has got better & better, until now it's a no-brainer.  So long, that is, if you can afford the system in the first place & have somewhere to put batteries and / or panels.  Luckily I can / have - sort of.  Based on our electricity consumption and the rates you can buy it (off peak) from Octopus Energy, the payback time for Batteries is now in the 3-5 year range.

I've just ordered a GivEnergy HY5 G2 + 9.5kWh of batteries due to be installed next month.

I talked to a few Solar companies but based on the area of our roof (as viewed on Google Earth) they didn't think I could install more than 1.5kW capacity - which is just not worth the installation cost.  I have almost that capacity on my Camper Van!

My solution (yet to be built) is this:

Effectively a solar-porch or pergola with 5kW worth of translucent panels (to let a bit of light through).  I had planned to build it at the moment - but availability of panels says otherwise!  The inverter I've ordered will just plug into whatever panels I eventually install - but will start saving money immediately.

It will be interesting to see how the batteries on their own perform & if the real savings compare to the potential.

I had to apply for planning permission for the above, which seems daft to me when I could build the porch without panels without permission.  You need permission for anything over 9 sqm of panels not attached to your roof.  Fortunately Planning were reasonably enthusiastic about it.  I think they can see the writing on the wall for a future where every available surface is covered in panels!

I bought a single translucent panel to test.  It's connected to a micro-grid-tie inverter from Amazon which you just plug in to a mains socket & it feeds power into the house.  It only generates about 400W peak - but it has made a noticeable difference over the summer.

 

 

I really like this idea, like you my roof is aligned the wrong way for panels with just the hip end in the right direction, even the door to door solar panel salesman who called said it wasn't going to be viable (at least he said it rather than sending an engineer to tell me the same thing). There used to be a conservatory on the back of the house before I bought it, something like you show would only put it back and with the roof area I do have might make solar viable, can't see how the planners can complain to much since it wouldn't be visible to just about any one else.

Do you know roughly what sort of square meterage would be needed for it to be credible?, obviously going to be variable depending on build costs etc but must be some sort of minimum.

[elbekko]

14 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

Wear fingerless gloves

Not going to happen. I'd much rather spend some more time insulating.

Life's too short to be miserable.

[Snagger]

10 hours ago, miketomcat said:

I actually disagree with this statement, a sensible eurobox at the price I could afford would likely be not much more reliable than my vehicles. If I were to use garages for repairs then it would be more money judging by my work colleagues. More importantly if you take into account depreciation it's not even close. Yes my cars are an expensive hobby but my cars are not just a hobby they are our commuter hacks, work tug and tow vehicle. I can't do all this with a eurobox.

Yes I do know your baiting me and yes I am bitting. 

Mike

By a sensible used  box as a daily runner and have the LRs as toys and it could save money for parts - less fuel and cheaper insurance could pay for the boring car, depending on what you get.  Having that old Chavalier for work while I rebuilt the 109 was quite liberating; I didn’t care if it got damaged in the staff car park and didn’t worry about it getting stolen ( a) it was cheap, so it’d not be much of a loss, and b) nobody would steal such a thing anyway).

[monkie]

One of the best cars I ever had for just everyday running about in was a little 2004 Renault Clio 1.5dci.

It was cheap to service, cheap to tax, cheap to insure couldn't manage to get it to do less than 60mpg. It was quite nippy and comfortable on longer runs. 

[Nonimouse]

AT my last house, we had a very old Raynurn Royale, converted to oil from it's origioanl wood burning format. It was gravty fed to a cast iron burner. Very, very simple tech. It would burn any thing, as long as it wasn't too thick. So sump oil, veg oil, lumpy paraffin. Draw back was that it was a bit of a sod to light, so ran 51 weeks of the year (1 week to cool for servicing). It had a back boiler, which linked to the huge hot water tank.... we had a lazy daisy above it, so clothes dried overnight. In the Sitting room, we had an ugly old Parkray 77, that was used with wood and th occasional bit of smokeless to kee p the fire in. That fed 7 radiators, via a simple 240v pump. The rads would get warm, never hot, but the house was always warm. No thermosat. It was an old 1870's cottage, built in red brick. It was never cold or damp. And it was cheap to heat..

[FridgeFreezer]

12 hours ago, miketomcat said:

I actually disagree with this statement, a sensible eurobox at the price I could afford would likely be not much more reliable than my vehicles.

I find that hard to believe given the rate you're going through shagged out 200TDi's

[miketomcat]

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

By a sensible used  box as a daily runner and have the LRs as toys and it could save money for parts - less fuel and cheaper insurance could pay for the boring car, depending on what you get.  Having that old Chavalier for work while I rebuilt the 109 was quite liberating; I didn’t care if it got damaged in the staff car park and didn’t worry about it getting stolen ( a) it was cheap, so it’d not be much of a loss, and b) nobody would steal such a thing anyway).

Please explain how running two vehicles is cheaper than running one? I'd still have all the costs of one (granted less fuel) but then I'd have all the additional costs of the second car. Plus I'd have to spend time fixing a car I hate. Sorry but this doesn't make any kind of sense! 

Mike

[simonr]

6 hours ago, sean f said:

Do you know roughly what sort of square meterage would be needed for it to be credible?, obviously going to be variable depending on build costs etc but must be some sort of minimum.

Any solar is worthwhile - as indicated by the single panel I have connected as a test, just sat on the roof of my bike shed.  It's enough to reduce the 'phantom load' (all the internet access points, usb chargers etc that stay on all the time) close to zero during the day for 6 months of the year.

To get panels installed on a roof, it may require scaffold & will definitely incur labour costs.  The more panels you install, the lower the proportion of this overhead.  Where it becomes credible really depends on you & the circumstances.  The installers seem to think, around 2-3kW is the minimum sensible.  With the best panels, you will see about 200W per sqm - so 10 to 15 sqm.