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109 1969 rear axle options


1969109

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Right i have owned a 1969 straight 6 ( now perkins prima powered) 109 for 15 years. It has all been restored by me over the years new galv chassis galv bulkhead etc.

 

It has an ENV rear axle from new ( optional extra on 109 straight 6)

It has developed some slop is the drive uptake in the diff, i have been told the env is not really servicable as parts are expensive and hard to find now)

 

--So would it be correct that the slop in the diff is unlikely to be rectified by taking it out and adjusting backlash?

 

-- what would my replacement rear axle options be?  Sailsbury or rover?

 

Many thanks

 

Matt

Edited by 1969109
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Welkom to the MadHouse Matt.

Love to see some pice !

Grown Ups will come by but basically anything is possible - wallet permitting of course.

A diff that has wear after 55 years + is to be expected. I just replaced the Rover diff behind the 200 Tdi with another Rover one.

Anything eventually gives up.

We have some serious diff rebuilders here so let's see what they have to say.

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Many thanks for the reply, here are some pic of my 109 the rebuild including splitting the diff from housing was done in 2015, i didnt adjust the diff so it is untouched.

At the time it all looked immaculate inside so i am still wondering what is worn to give the backlash issue, could something have got loose?

 

Any thoughts on sraying with the env ( if anyone can point me towards a service manual that actually gives instruction on the env)

 

Or advise on finding me a good price for a sailsbury that i can build up and swap in

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@Hybrid_From_Hell on here may be able to have a look at it as he builds diffs for a living. 

The S3 109 salisbury and prop will bolt in as would a Rover axle and prop. 

Have you checked the drive flange/halfshaft spline for free play?

Very nice truck, and welcome. 

Out of interest, which supplier did you use for the galv. BH and how did it fit together? 

Steve

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1 hour ago, 1969109 said:

Any thoughts on staying with the env ( if anyone can point me towards a service manual that actually gives instruction on the env)

A Service Manual other than the Workshop Manual?
Section E1-14A is titled Overhaul. The immediately preceding pages show an exploded view, with key.

This isn't work I would undertake, on any differential, but for those with the skills  / training it seems the information is there.

Regards.

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Hi thanks for the reply,

 

Its a richards chassis which they welded the engine mounts in my specified place for the perkins prima engine that i had been running in the old chassis for 7 years.

 

The bulkhead i bought as £50 rotter and put new pillars, footwells and then converted it to a straight six bulkhead with the removable centre panel and gearbox over panel, this was because the position of the engine and gearbox and propshafts were all set by originally having the straight 6. I fabricated the two additional panels from 16 gauge steel and had them galvanivlzed as well. I had this done at Cardif galvanizers. Also yes have checked the half shaft its not that but will double check again before i pull the diff.

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Edited by 1969109
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Despite its age, I doubt there would be much wrong with the diff gears unless it has been abused or neglected.  I’d suspect the Mose wear would be in the splines of the drive flanges and maybe the half shafts.  You could have some wear on the pinion flange too, so it has slack on the pinion itself.  Those parts are all relatively cheap to replace.

if you do have to replace the axle, then I’d strongly recommend choosing a Salisbury.  A Rover axle isn’t really strong enough for a 109.  A decent Salisbury should cost you a couple of hundred pounds, but might need a bit of work on the brakes.

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3 hours ago, 1969109 said:

Hi thanks for the reply,

 

Its a richards chassis which they welded the engine mounts in my specified place for the perkins prima engine that i had been running in the old chassis for 7 years.

 

The bulkhead i bought as £50 rotter and put new pillars, footwells and then converted it to a straight six bulkhead with the removable centre panel and gearbox over panel, this was because the position of the engine and gearbox and propshafts were all set by originally having the straight 6. I fabricated the two additional panels from 16 gauge steel and had them galvanivlzed as well. I had this done at Cardif galvanizers. Also yes have checked the half shaft its not that but will double check again before i pull the diff.

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Nice fabrication regards Stephen

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Right got some video of today.

 

I took the prop of to see what play i have with the ENV rear diff.

This first video is with both drive flanges bolted up and wheels on the ground

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEknvzB9-k68PTEEbJ

 

The next is the minimal play in the half shaft to drive flange

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEknqki5sQkLh0VTHI

 

The next is as above drive flange unbolted but half shaft still engaged to look for play by turning the drive flange back and forth and observing the pinion flange.

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEknxVwnKUMIbxUnrx

 

Does this spread any light for you people?

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Beautiful truck !! Great work on that.

That play all looks alright to me - if the diff turned immediately from the drive flange - the inner splines should be fine. I couldn’t see any movement that looked bad on the flanges, and the movement on the diff didn’t look much beyond the gears engaging from one side of the teeth to the other ?  🤷🏻‍♂️ 
 

If it’s clonking could it be the slip joint in your prop? 

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😃 thanks for the replies, the final video i did earlier today was looking back at the gearbox, engaging 1st and.looking at the movement before the gearbox output resists in each direction, does this look normal.

I totally rebuilt the gearbox 7 years ago with a nos layshaft and all new quality bearings, it has a nice quiet fairey overdrive. Im wondering about that castle nut in the box near the overdrive, should i check if that is looke or does it all look ok?

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AoQ4CZYzE-ZEkn10ZSVCWlhtqhsu

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Okey Dokey All

 

Here is a mass amount of info on diffs, options types etc Might be worth shoving in the Tech Forum ?

From my website - "The A-Z of diffs for Land rovers" Megasquirt for V8 engines - A-Z of Diffs for LRs (megasquirt-v8.co.uk)

 

However thoughts on the ENV issue / Question.

 

There are about 5 "main" differentials for Land Rover

No 1. Early Superlong Long Nose units 

Made for about max 2 years unique, and rare 4.88:1 Ratios and 4.7:1 Ratios.

  • Pros - Originality if on an 80
  • Cons - Rare seriously expensive to buy and worse to rebuild some parts NLA 

 

No 2 - Long Nose

Fitted to loads of LRs

Basic model is the rubbish 2 pin, in early 16mm cross pin, later 18mm but still junk

some 10 spline some 24 spline, some factory LSD can be upgraded with all sorts of options from 4 pins ATBs, LSDs Lockers HD CWPS Pegged etc etc

There are numerous styles of casings - earliest best and got cost saved and worst as it when on - the last puma Casings being the worst

 

  • Pros : availability / Prices / Options to upgrade and more HD options than any other LR diff inc more Ratios HD CWPS Etc
  • Can be made BLOODY strong, but can then get expensive, high end builds always sell well as big market.
  • Cons, weak as standard some early split nose casing parts can be expensive some parts NLA new

 

No 3. Short Nose Diff

The Laughable replacement to the Salisbury, as the military demanded a removable diff unit for the 110s which could be fixed fast in feild of fire vs salisbury

2 pins still weak as cheese, 4 pins not that great with tenant joint cross pins, can be beefed up. 

  • Pros - Not a clunky heavy expensive to repair Salisbury
  • More upgrade options, but less than Long Nose
  • Cheaper to repair that Salisbury
  • Repairs don't need entire axle removal !
  • Cons - Not a Salisbury, but not clunky and can be made bloody strong
  • Silly THIN crown wheel, pegging resolves this
  • Poor locking system on carrier cap - we can sort this too

 


No 4. - Salisbury

Basically an old American Truck axle differential that LR bought on the cheap- A yonks old Dana 60.

Big heavy and clunky

Was made for Series and then coil axles, both very different and not swapable inc centres. Can be drum brake and later are disc.

 

  • Pros - Strong centre,
  • Good for ploughing trenches to put potatoes in behind you (Casing can be shaved)
  • Cons. - The true Dana 60 comes with MASSIVE 35 spline drive gears and huge shafts,
  • LRs Salisbury uses LR drive gears and 24 spline shafts, so whilst diff is massively strong ...the shafts aren't !
  • Work is VERY expensive both on parts and labour (we no longer touch these)
  • Few upgrade options.
  • Casings can fracture the side tube from the pigs head
  • Special Clamp kit needed to stretch the case to remove centre
  • The centre itself is what makes it strong, swap for any other centre and its way weaker
  • Silly LR shafts
  • Entire axle removal for diff work
  • And however well built clunky and horrible (Yes I do not like them )
  • Marmite diff ! 

No 5 - ENV Diff

Fitted to Series 2 LWB Rear axles for owners wnating something more HD than std LRs options.

Was a short lived project by Eaton, so quality, and involved Vauxhall Morris and I think Nuffiled,

and was also on Morris commercials for a short while along with early S2 Forward control trucks.

Only made in 4:7 ratio, and have special axle tubes

Replaced by Salisbury due to costs

 

  • Pros Pretty Strong ....
  • and rare ! - (The Ooooooooooooo Factor ! )
  • Originality if required 
  • HUGE half shafts - never known one break
  • Not a lump like the Salisbury
  • ie Removable from casing
  • Cons - These are known to have pinion issues
  • VERY expensive to repair (oil seal is sort of £40+ VAT !! )
  • Many parts NLA
  • Clunky even when rebuilt

So, lesson over :rofl: so what the answer to the ENV question in my mind ?

 

As to the question of what to do with the current ENV ?

My advise is

 

1st - leave it alone - if you tighten up the backlash you could really upset it and it could become nosiey, new CWPs are around £550 ish and Genuine only,

costs to rebuild are bonkers and some bits NLA, last one we did we had to make some replacement parts to get it to behave.

They ARE clunky anyway, so even rebuilt it will be LESS clunky, if you want Clunky then a Salisbury is a good choice to swap one clunky diff for another !

Better oils would help without a doubt - shove Swepco in it and I'll place a bet it will calm it down :

 

Oil is not just oil, this stuff is absolutely amazing - I use it on high end builds and in my truck, www.is4x4.com speak to Mark, tell him I sent you !

You could go for a short nose - and you can have more options ATB 4 Pin Pegged but you would need to buy a 4.7 CWP Ashcroft no longer do these for Short Nose, would have to be a KAM unit as only ones that make them, would get quite expensive - so I would say avoid this route.  Would also be wider axle too and pig to fit

 

My advice other than add Swepco, and leave alone is if you really want a quiet smooth axle, go for a series axle with a series diff, and I have still got around 110 Genuine New Old stock 4.7 CWPs (don't ask) or a HD Ashcroft 4.7 CWP (Cheaper) add maybe a 4 pin and you'd have a strong diff which looks period (salisbury won't) 

My best advise is leave alone.... or go Series something .....and forget Salisbury !

Nige

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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